Modelling Equal Gender Appeal

[sir_pudding]

Appearance isn't even especially relevant here, except that the character would benefit from it, even if not androgynous. This is just using an influence skill. It doesn't even need to be Sex Appeal (as the Basic Set hints and Social Engineering is more explicit about, Sex Appeal is about manipulating people with sexuality, it's not limited to seduction, nor is it even the only means of seduction). Ordinarily seducing someone who isn't at all responsive to your gender is probably just impossible, although if it is just barely impossible a -10 modifier is a possibility, regardless of which influence skill you choose.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Moving it away from the highly controversial issue of sexual orientation may prove instructive. Consider a possibly analogous question of "How do I model somebody whose appearance causes everyone to treat them as a respected elder. Even people who come from cultures who put to death anybody over the age of 30 as evil witches."

I think the more analogous case "is how do I make this NPC treat me with respect for this interaction, even though they have Intolerance (People over 30)". Which answer is "any influence roll with the right approach at the penalty from intolerance".

Incidentally, if you think your group is OK with it, be sure they are OK with it in *both directions*. Doing this is completely opening the door to the question of "what trait does my guy I need to take to be irresistible to gay women as well as straight ones", and a group that's fine with bisexuality might be extremely uncomfortable with a PC who wanted to be a master of conversion therapy.

Probably more like persuading someone to make an uncharacteristic one night stand than permanently altering their identity. Since these kinds of things do actually happen with some frequency, while I agree they may make many people uncomfortable, they aren't actually unrealistic.

[whswhs]

About Sex Appeal, the Basic Set says, "If you aren't willing to vamp people to get what you want . . ." The phrase "what you want" is much broader than "sexual gratification," and certainly many people have used sex appeal to get things other than sexual gratification; consider the concept of a honey trap, for example. And "vamping" can mean "exploiting" as well as "seducing."

In Social Engineering, I expanded on that, to say that any of the Influence skills could be used to obtain sexual gratification, or at least the opportunity for it. And to reinforce that Sex Appeal could be used to obtain other things.

If you think about it, if Sex Appeal could be used to gain admission from a guard, or to get out of a prison cell, or to get someone to talk incautiously, or to distract people from what your partners were doing, it wouldn't be the sort of thing that would be included in the Basic Set.

[sir_pudding]

Surely you mean "couldn't be used"...

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you think about it, if Sex Appeal could be used to ... distract people from what your partners were doing.

Literally used for exactly that purpose the other week in a game. An NPC was trying to observe a PC and their interactions with an important NPC. Another PC used Sex Appeal to distract the observer (it was a social setting) without making it obvious they were connected with the target of the observation. That is, they talked to them, vamped it up, and physically got in the way under the guise of being attracted and trying to be appealing. In the time it took for them to be politely declined (the social situation demanded the avoidance of a scene), the other PC had concluded and the NPC was successfully obstructed from finding out what was going on.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Literally used for exactly that purpose the other week in a game. An NPC was trying to observe a PC and their interactions with an important NPC. Another PC used Sex Appeal to distract the observer SNIP

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Surely you mean "couldn't be used"...

Scenes and actions like that are the main reason why a player chooses sex appeal for a PC, it´s just a other way of social interaction to get what you want.
If sex appeal wouldn´t work that way next to nobody would take it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Surely you mean "couldn't be used"...

Yes, I do, thanks.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Willy

Scenes and actions like that are the main reason why a player chooses sex appeal for a PC, it´s just a other way of social interaction to get what you want.
If sex appeal wouldn´t work that way next to nobody would take it.

I don't think anyone in the thread is arguing that Sex Appeal is only usable for getting into someone's pants. Indeed, Basic Set strongly implies that Sex Appeal is usable for more than that - B219 states "You may substitute an Influence roll against Sex Appeal for any reaction roll made by someone who is attracted to members of your sex" (emphasis added), B359 simply lists it alongside the other influence skills without any qualifier (aside from success with it giving a Very Good reaction, rather than simply a Good one). Social Engineering, as Bill has noted, explicitly draws attention to the fact that it can be used for much more than Summon (Beast With Two Backs).

The question is if Sex Appeal can be used on those who are not attracted to members of your sex. And the answer there is, I feel, a very clear "No." The above quote from B219 restricts it to working on those who are attracted to members of your sex, and SE36 states "Sex Appeal is a very effective distraction . . . against a person who’s potentially interested!" (emphasis in original).

Of course, in a setting where "everyone has an exception," Sex Appeal should certainly work on everyone - but be penalized against those who normally are not attracted to members of your sex. If you want this to be possible to buy off with a Technique, that's certainly an option.

[whswhs]

In general, reaction modifiers also act as modifiers to Influence rolls. But this doesn't seem to be the case for Appearance. It's listed specifically as giving its standard bonuses to Sex Appeal for above average Appearance (and double penalties for below average Appearance), and as giving bonuses to Intimidation for seriously negative Appearance; I think that (a) these clearly supersede the standard reaction roll bonuses in these cases, rather than adding to them, (b) this strongly suggests that Appearance modifiers don't apply to the other four Influence skills, for which they aren't listed (for comparison, Voice is listed for Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, and Sex Appeal, but not the other three, and the definition of Voice concurs), and (c) if you have a split modifier, it seems clear that you get the higher modifier to Sex Appeal for those attracted to your sex, but for those not attracted to your sex, you don't get to roll in the first place, and therefore the lower modifier is irrelevant.

But what if you have Appearance (Androgynous) and an intermediate modifier?Or what if you have the Androgynous perk and a lower level of appearance?

The perk definition in Power-Ups 2 says that "With minimal effort, you can ensure that you’re mistaken for whatever sex is convenient." This seems to apply at least to disguising yourself as the other sex; it could at least be taken as saying that there are no penalties to the Disguise roll. However, I note that the Extreme Sexual Dimorphism perk gives you +1 to Sex Appeal, but -1 to Disguise when trying to remain anonymous; this makes me wonder if a normal roll to appear to be the other sex is unmodified, and if an Androgynous person might get a bonus, perhaps a minimal +1, or perhaps a +4 or so (that is, even default skill would often be good enough.)

It seems as if, if you have disguised yourself as the other sex, you'll get the reaction modifiers for people attracted to that sex. If you're Handsome/Beautiful, the Disguise roll is normal difficulty (whatever that is in this case), but others will react to you at +4; if you're Handsome/Beautiful (Androgynous), others will react to you only at +3 (you're not quintessentially masculine/feminine), but it's easier, perhaps much easier, to pass for the other sex and get that +3.

Question: If you're Androgynous, can you use Disguise to conceal the ambisexual quality of your appearance? This would get you +4 from those attracted to whichever sex you were appearing to be. I could see a case for saying either that this is a relatively easy Disguise roll (since you're good at passing) or that it's a normal difficulty Disguise roll (since your passing normally depends on your having an ambiguous appearance, and you're trying to make your appearance unambiguously masculine or feminine).

Any discussion of the case where the person is NOT disguised, and is known to be their true sex, seems to require more speculation.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The perk definition in Power-Ups 2 says that "With minimal effort, you can ensure that you’re mistaken for whatever sex is convenient." This seems to apply at least to disguising yourself as the other sex; it could at least be taken as saying that there are no penalties to the Disguise roll.

Personally, I'd interpret "minimal effort" as meaning you don't even need Disguise if you are androgynous - so long as you aren't obviously presenting as one sex or the other, you can get people to think you're whichever sex is convenient. I wouldn't object to calling it a +4 to Disguise, however.

Originally Posted by whswhs

However, I note that the Extreme Sexual Dimorphism perk gives you +1 to Sex Appeal, but -1 to Disguise when trying to remain anonymous; this makes me wonder if a normal roll to appear to be the other sex is unmodified, and if an Androgynous person might get a bonus, perhaps a minimal +1, or perhaps a +4 or so (that is, even default skill would often be good enough.)

Specifically, ESD gives you Distinctive Features. It's hard to hide the bulge in your pants (for men) or your exaggerated hourglass figure (for women), so you're readily recognizable - "Look for the dude who appears to be wearing a codpiece," for example. Arguably, that instance of Distinctive Features should probably penalize you even more if you're trying to disguise yourself as a member of the opposite sex. But I do agree that, absent such features, disguising oneself as some member of the opposite sex is probably doable with unmodified Disguise (typically, I think disguising oneself as an overweight member of the opposite sex is easiest, although if the opposite sex has ready access to highly-concealing clothing, that can easily be all you need - disguising oneself as a woman in an area where the burqa is commonly worn can be as easy as throwing one on and adjusting your gait a bit).

Originally Posted by whswhs

It seems as if, if you have disguised yourself as the other sex, you'll get the reaction modifiers for people attracted to that sex. If you're Handsome/Beautiful, the Disguise roll is normal difficulty (whatever that is in this case), but others will react to you at +4; if you're Handsome/Beautiful (Androgynous), others will react to you only at +3 (you're not quintessentially masculine/feminine), but it's easier, perhaps much easier, to pass for the other sex and get that +3.

I'd personally be inclined to have maintaining your positive appearance be difficult when disguising yourself as the opposite sex, probably simply a -1 per +1 maximum Appearance you want to maintain. A Very Handsome man has clear masculine features; both concealing those and somehow making the character look as though they have clear feminine features (to match Very Beautiful) is going to be difficult. Perhaps halve the penalty if you opt to have an androgynous appearance while disguised?

Originally Posted by whswhs

Question: If you're Androgynous, can you use Disguise to conceal the ambisexual quality of your appearance? This would get you +4 from those attracted to whichever sex you were appearing to be. I could see a case for saying either that this is a relatively easy Disguise roll (since you're good at passing) or that it's a normal difficulty Disguise roll (since your passing normally depends on your having an ambiguous appearance, and you're trying to make your appearance unambiguously masculine or feminine).

Simply a penalty equal to the difference between your normal Appearance modifier and the new maximum modifier seems appropriate to me. That is, Very Handsome/Beautiful (Androgynous) normally gives a +4 toward both sexes; if you want to use Disguise to instead make yourself appear Very Handsome or Very Beautiful without Androgynous, that boosts the bonus to +6 toward those attracted to such characters, for -2 to Disguise. I'd say if you want to disguise yourself as someone of lower Appearance, but lose the androgynous qualifier, that's done at no penalty.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Simply a penalty equal to the difference between your normal Appearance modifier and the new maximum modifier seems appropriate to me. That is, Very Handsome/Beautiful (Androgynous) normally gives a +4 toward both sexes; if you want to use Disguise to instead make yourself appear Very Handsome or Very Beautiful without Androgynous, that boosts the bonus to +6 toward those attracted to such characters, for -2 to Disguise. I'd say if you want to disguise yourself as someone of lower Appearance, but lose the androgynous qualifier, that's done at no penalty.

Hmmm. That seems fairly reasonable. It would let a Handsome masculine man disguise himself as a woman at -2, comparable to disguising himself as a member of a closely related species; but for a bishonen it would be -1. And in an inherently Androgynous race (such as elves in my recently ended fantasy campaign) there would be no penalty either way.