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Old 11-10-2021, 08:30 PM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

In GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, nature's strength and sanctity are pretty straightforward: the nature's strength rules come with very clear examples of various penalties, while areas of high/low sanctity presumably correspond to good/evil temples (at least ones above some threshold of importance). But it's much less clear how one should go about placing areas of high or low mana, much less very high or no mana, even though some parts of the game clearly require such areas in order to make sense: liches can only be killed permanently in no-mana areas, and the faerie folk's Dependency on mana is a free 25 points of no-mana zones aren't encountered occasionally.

If we look to DFRPG for guidance, Spells indicates that areas of high/low mana are actually supposed to be more common than areas of high/low sanctity—but "random", which could explain that while clerics often operate in cities (with historic temples), wizards tend to end up making their bases in random spots of wilderness. But the answers in Spells still aren't wholly satisfactory, because it indicates areas of no mana should be plot-device level rare—which causes real problems for explaining how PCs are ever supposed to (permanently) defeat a lich.

So I'm left feeling I don't have a wholly satisfactory approach here. What have people on the forums done in their own campaigns?
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Old 11-10-2021, 11:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Drain Mana is available to PI 6 clerics (who don't have Magery to lose), Suspend Mana is at PI 5, and scrolls are available to lich hunters.
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Old 11-11-2021, 02:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Years before DF, I was part of a fantasy campaign where the mana levels increased the further one went underground, allowing levels to the dungeon of increasing supernatural/magical threat.

The first levels were pretty normal, but the midpoint had magic wielders becoming prominent. The bottom level, of course, being so ridiculously magical that magic was almost as dangerous to the user as the target, making the fighters more important.

It worked out pretty well. Tactics that worked at the beginning were useless later on, which prevented complacency. We had to keep alert.
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Old 11-11-2021, 03:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.
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Old 11-11-2021, 08:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
But the answers in Spells still aren't wholly satisfactory, because it indicates areas of no mana should be plot-device level rare—which causes real problems for explaining how PCs are ever supposed to (permanently) defeat a lich.
Are liches random encounters in DFRPG? Typically, one would expect a lich to have a role as a lasting, serious antagonist - you don't run into and kill a lich on the way to grab some treasure, you have a longterm quest to take him out. And, of course, the way you do so is by either capturing him somehow and dragging him to the plot-device NMZ, or encountering him near the plot-device NMZ (maybe he has some nefarious plan associated with it) and maneuver him into it before killing him. That, or you just move on to a different area and ignore the lich, like a proper murder-hobo (heroism is overrated).

Of course, if one can create temporary NMZ's (with an appropriate spell, power, scroll, artifact, etc), then you just need one of those (although acquiring such may well be a quest unto itself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taneli View Post
Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.
I like this idea, although it may make NMZ's a bit too rare for Dependencies to come into play. Most places should probably be normal mana, of course. So, a rough draft might look like this:
Code:
Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
3-4 (1.85%)	None
5-7 (14.3%)	Low
8-13 (67.6%)	Normal
14-16 (14.3%)	High
17-18 (1.85%)	Very High
Alternatively, you could roll 1d20, and use the following, which I think I like the distribution of a bit more:
Code:
Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
1 (5%)		None
2-4 (15%)	Low
5-16 (60%)	Normal
17-19 (15%)	High
20 (5%)		Very High
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Last edited by Varyon; 11-11-2021 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 11-11-2021, 12:27 PM   #6
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
Drain Mana is available to PI 6 clerics (who don't have Magery to lose), Suspend Mana is at PI 5, and scrolls are available to lich hunters.
This is a good point. Leaving these spells out of DFRPG may have been a pretty major error, at least as far as lich-slaying goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taneli View Post
Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I like this idea, although it may make NMZ's a bit too rare for Dependencies to come into play. Most places should probably be normal mana, of course. So, a rough draft might look like this:
Code:
Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
3-4 (1.85%)	None
5-7 (14.3%)	Low
8-13 (67.6%)	Normal
14-16 (14.3%)	High
17-18 (1.85%)	Very High
Alternatively, you could roll 1d20, and use the following, which I think I like the distribution of a bit more:
Code:
Roll (Freq)	Mana Level
1 (5%)		None
2-4 (15%)	Low
5-16 (60%)	Normal
17-19 (15%)	High
20 (5%)		Very High
I like the idea of doing something along these lines, though if you do it for every patch of wilderness it might actually lead to too many very high and no mana zones. It might work for dungeons, where it's plausible both that (1) the dungeon might have been deliberately constructed somewhere with variant mana levels and (2) weird stuff might have happened in the dungeon's history to change the mana levels. For placing high/low mana levels over a wider area, I might do something like, "okay, for each temple important enough to have high/low sanctity, I'll place 1d random high/low mana areas, most likely in the surrounding countryside but in rare cases in the same settlement as the temple."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Are liches random encounters in DFRPG? Typically, one would expect a lich to have a role as a lasting, serious antagonist - you don't run into and kill a lich on the way to grab some treasure, you have a longterm quest to take him out. And, of course, the way you do so is by either capturing him somehow and dragging him to the plot-device NMZ, or encountering him near the plot-device NMZ (maybe he has some nefarious plan associated with it) and maneuver him into it before killing him. That, or you just move on to a different area and ignore the lich, like a proper murder-hobo (heroism is overrated).

Of course, if one can create temporary NMZ's (with an appropriate spell, power, scroll, artifact, etc), then you just need one of those (although acquiring such may well be a quest unto itself).
Pagoda of Worlds does use liches as random encounters. Even setting that aside, capturing and transporting a powerful spellcaster to a no-mana area seems like ultra-hard mode even by the standards of RPG Big Bads. You can of course just have the lich voluntarily go near the NMZ for whatever reason but unless your story behind that is really good players may roll their eyes at the villain's stupidity.
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Old 11-11-2021, 12:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Pagoda of Worlds does use liches as random encounters. Even setting that aside, capturing and transporting a powerful spellcaster to a no-mana area seems like ultra-hard mode even by the standards of RPG Big Bads. You can of course just have the lich voluntarily go near the NMZ for whatever reason but unless your story behind that is really good players may roll their eyes at the villain's stupidity.
What happens to a DFRPG lich when reduced to -10xHP? Unless they come back extremely quickly (or literally cannot be stopped without an NMZ), I don't think you'd actually need to outright destroy one to get past it - destroy its body, move on before it grows another one. If the GM decides it holds a grudge against you and decides to come after you... well, that's an arc villain. If they have something more akin to Unkillable 2 than Unkillable 3, of course, you've just got to "kill" them, then carry their remains to an NMZ (hacking at them every so often to prevent regeneration) and unceremoniously dump them there. And yeah, a lich would need a really good reason to be near an NMZ, but that should be doable (maybe the MacGuffin it's searching for is in the area, or even within the NMZ and the lich wants to be close by as soon as its servants retrieve it).
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Old 11-11-2021, 01:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

You can also dispose of a lich using non-damage methods; casting entombment seems uniquely appropriate, and flesh to stone will work if the GM is willing to consider a lich a valid target for the spell.
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Old 11-11-2021, 01:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taneli View Post
Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.
If you want to get really fancy you can use the -10 (no mana) to +10 (Very high Mana) of continuous mana with normal (0) on 10 (this is where the cumulative percentage is 50.0%) with each number ±2.

Yes this makes 15-18 No mana but the cumulative percentage of getting 15 or higher is 4.5% (100.0-95.4) which is effectively a 1 on a d20 (auto failure under 1 and 20 rule)
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Old 11-11-2021, 02:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

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If you want to get really fancy you can use the -10 (no mana) to +10 (Very high Mana) of continuous mana with normal (0) on 10 (this is where the cumulative percentage is 50.0%) with each number ±2.

Yes this makes 15-18 No mana but the cumulative percentage of getting 15 or higher is 4.5% (100.0-95.4) which is effectively a 1 on a d20 (auto failure under 1 and 20 rule)
This also means -2 mana (roll of 11) is as common as Normal (roll of 10), which feels a bit... off. Unless you're saying it's Normal Mana for a roll of 3-10, either +2 or -2 for a roll of 11 (flip a coin), either +4 or -4 for a roll of 12, etc.

If using -10 for No Mana and +10 for Very High Mana, I'd probably be more inclined to have it be Normal for 10 or 11, and +1 per deviation (probably - below 10, + above 11). That appears to only allow for a range of +7, but I'd have 3's, 4's, 17's, and 18's "explode" - a roll of 17 is +6, and you reroll and add the result of that roll to the +6 (alternatively, to make NMZ's and Very High Mana more rare, only have 3's and 18's explode). Note an explosion can either have no effect or make the effect more pronounced, it can't suppress it (so if you roll a 3 - for -7 - and then roll a 15 - for +5 - you actually just stay with -7), and you can't go below -10 or above +10.
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