How to price ATR (AOD Only)

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Just as another data point, a PU4-style Cosmic Dodge for an average human (Basic Speed 5) would be 37.5 points; Cosmic Parry (One Skill) or Cosmic Block would be 15 at skill 12; Cosmic Parry (All) would be 30 at DX 12; throw those all into an AA group (not exactly appropriate, but just as a way to eyeball the discount for overlapping utility) and you get 50 points.

A 50pt power that say "I can always defend myself and as though I used AoD regardless of my previous actions" sounds like a super nice power.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

A 50pt power that say "I can always defend myself and as though I used AoD regardless of my previous actions" sounds like a super nice power.

Yep, it would be handy. But then, it's less than half of what a level of ATR lets you do -- can't attack twice, can't cast spells in half as many turns, can't move twice as far, can't defuse a bomb in half the time...

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Yep, it would be handy. But then, it's less than half of what a level of ATR lets you do -- can't attack twice, can't cast spells in half as many turns, can't move twice as far, can't defuse a bomb in half the time...

Sounds fair to me. I'll use the -60% on ATR for "AoD Only" and a new 50pt trait of this.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

How would you price Altered Time Rate (Active Defense Only)?

This is the best way I can figure to create an advantage that allows you defend at the end of a turn no matter what, though the only situation I can think of when you wouldn't be able to defend at the end of your turn is All-Out Attack, but I'm sure there must be other situations.

But anyway, I'm looking to price an advantage that allows you to defend (once per attack, at normal defense score) when you All-Out Attack.

How would you do this?

As you are not looking to gain the benefits of All-Out-Defense, I'd call this "Clears the last Maneuver, No new Maneuver granted" -70% if you wanted to use ATR as your basis.

That gives it a 30 point price, which sets it at the same value as an extra attack with multistrike, which covers most of the benefit of an AoA.

I'd be tempted to build a wildcard technique, but it would end up convoluted and pricier in the end in all likelihood.
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Originally Posted by Varyon

Cosmic +50% on an Active Defense allows it to be used even when it's otherwise unavailable. I think such a defense would work even after an All Out Attack. See PU4 for the guidelines on how to build this.

Sorry, even cosmic defenses are unavailable after an AoA...

Originally Posted by PK

Absolutely! In fact, that would've made a nice addition to the specific examples, darn. :)

A Cosmic active defense gets a roll in any situation where, were it not for an exception caused by something specific about the nature of this specific attack, you'd be able to use that defense against this attack. As long as the active defense would be otherwise legal (e.g., you didn't make an All-Out Attack last turn), you can use it.

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Sounds fair to me. I'll use the -60% on ATR for "AoD Only" and a new 50pt trait of this.

I think that's way too big a limitation... "AoD only" is more akin to "Aspected" IMO

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think that's way too big a limitation... "AoD only" is more akin to "Aspected" IMO

ATR is one of those traits that allows a ton of different options and taking away most of them makes for a vastly less useful trait. Concentrate Only is -60% (you get the same thing with CM and No Mental Separation) and Concentrate is one of the better maneuvers out there. AoD is only relevant in certain situations and you can build the effects of it fairly cheaply (as shown by others trying to do that) with a tiny nuisance that you also don't get any benefit from more than one level. The major place ATR really takes off is in AoA (being able to do the best possible attack with zero downside AND something else is big) and Ready (able to do physical actions twice as fast) with the latter still being relatively cheap if you take a limitation for noncombat use only.

In theory I'd normally agree with you, in fact I did years ago when I was first messing around with modified ATR. In practice even -60% doesn't compare well to other 40pt traits but does compare well to CM and I'm certain there's better options for similar effects.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

ATR is one of those traits that allows a ton of different options and taking away most of them makes for a vastly less useful trait. Concentrate Only is -60% (you get the same thing with CM and No Mental Separation) and Concentrate is one of the better maneuvers out there. AoD is only relevant in certain situations and you can build the effects of it fairly cheaply (as shown by others trying to do that) with a tiny nuisance that you also don't get any benefit from more than one level. The major place ATR really takes off is in AoA (being able to do the best possible attack with zero downside AND something else is big) and Ready (able to do physical actions twice as fast) with the latter still being relatively cheap if you take a limitation for noncombat use only.

In theory I'd normally agree with you, in fact I did years ago when I was first messing around with modified ATR. In practice even -60% doesn't compare well to other 40pt traits but does compare well to CM and I'm certain there's better options for similar effects.

I hear where you're coming from. But you are still getting a whole lot with an extra AoD.

A repercussion-free AoA with a half move forward, 2 points of dodge (and the double-defense option is often better than that) and you get an extra step or half move, greatly enhancing mobility.

An extra attack or options! + Bonus to Defend or options! + Enhanced mobility = Shouldn't be too super-cheap!

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I hear where you're coming from. But you are still getting a whole lot with an extra AoD.

A repercussion-free AoA with a half move forward, 2 points of dodge (and the double-defense option is often better than that) and you get an extra step or half move, greatly enhancing mobility.

An extra attack or options! + Bonus to Defend or options! + Enhanced mobility = Shouldn't be too super-cheap!

Oh, yeah, I always forget about that half move. Considering that's half a level of Enhanced Move (enhanced to be easier to use, limited to only if you pick the dodge option), I'd be perfectly okay with a 50pt tag.

And I agree, it shouldn't be super cheap, but 40 or 50pts isn't cheap, that's the price of Flight, fully enhanced 360 vision, two Extra Attacks with One Skill Only, +2 to all physical skills, Invisibility, etc.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Cosmic +50% on an Active Defense allows it to be used even when it's otherwise unavailable. I think such a defense would work even after an All Out Attack. See PU4 for the guidelines on how to build this.

To keep abuse in check I think I'd require a +50% for each instance of defending when you can't. Otherwise it blurs the lines a bit to much.

The examples we're given are "dodge a surprise attack" and "parry a flail with a rapier" for example.

If however you wanted to parry a surprise attack from a flail, that's basically DOUBLY undefendable so it only seems fair that you need +100% to defend against it...

and if that flail happened to role a critical hit, that's a 3rd instance of "can't defend" which should probably require +150% to defend against

"Cosmic Block allows you to try blocking a bullet" is like adding Blockable -5% to an attack, but usually the progression is "first it's blockable then it's parryable" so for something like using a rapier to parry a bullet, maybe you should need to take two upgrades for +100%?

This especially seems fair since enhanced dodge is already a higher base cost than enhanced parry, which I believe is partly because dodging is more useful since it works against unparryable and unblockable attacks already.

Enhanced Block and Enhanced Parry are worth the same, but I figure that's because the benefit of "I can block arrows with my shield" is offset by "I don't get a free attack on a succesful block against unarmed defenders"

Of course if we were using the optional pyramid "dodge this" rules where ANYONE can parry bullets (at -5/-6 instead of -2/-3 to dodge, 3/57p30) then you're basically just talking about reducing the penalty.

+100% would be too expensive because then you could just buy up your base parry not just to offset the penalty but to get better against non-bullets too. So +50% is okay.

The idea that "it's a smaller leap from arrows to bullets than from throwing knives to bullets" when Dodge This penalizes Block/Parry equally is probably found under Parry and Block: Cover (pg 29) where blocks can ignore the speed penalty if you pass a perception check and declare a block before the attack is rolled.

You only take the penalty "after a hit roll is declared" which I figure is meant "after you make the roll and declare the result" rather than "declaring I'm going to roll to hit".

Pre-roll defense declarations regarding taking cover from AE attacks might be complicated by B414's "Scatter" rules (whether it will hit the hex isn't even determined until after the roll) though.

To prevent the meta-game aspect (player knowing a miss vs character knowing a miss) I think maybe you could do something like if you detect someone initiating an attack (successful perception roll done before the attack is even rolled) then your MoS could be used as a bonus on a 2nd perception check to discern who the attack will hit.

In this case though: any success gives perfect knowledge of where it will hit, while MoF would give a vague idea of what the roll will be.

So let's say you roll a 10 on a required perception difficulty of 11: a MoS of 1 gives you an effective perception of 11 on your followup per-check to determine where the attack will end up.

You roll a 15, so MoF determines a variance of 5 points.

You then declare ahead of time something like a "cautiousness threshold" of how much variation you'll allow for.

Someone confident they'll pass their 2nd perception check who doesn't want to avoid wasting defenses on misses can choose 0, in which case they'll only defend when they pass the roll.

Someone not confident in their perceptions could choose a threshold of 3, i which case they'll still use a block if the MoF on the 2nd check is 1 or 2 or 3, but will not defend if the MoF is 4 or more.

People who fail the initial check don't specify this at all, since they don't know the attack is coming.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Sorry, even cosmic defenses are unavailable after an AoA...

Ah, I wasn't certain if that were the case, so thanks for that. It might not be horrible to allow a separate instance of Cosmic +50% to allow for that, however.

As others have noted, -60% on ATR seems roughly appropriate, maybe -50% or -40% considering the increased movement.

Originally Posted by Plane

To keep abuse in check I think I'd require a +50% for each instance of defending when you can't. Otherwise it blurs the lines a bit to much.

Instances where you have multiple factors coming into play should be rare enough that this is a non-issue - at the very least, the price for further levels should be markedly reduced. A Surprise Attack Critical Hit from a Ranged Innate Attack enhanced with Cosmic: No Active Defense Allowed has four different reasons why it can't be Parried (Surprise Attack, Critical Hit, and Cosmic all prevent any Active Defense, and a Ranged IA cannot be Parried unless given an appropriate Limitation), but encountering such should be vanishingly rare. If I were inclined to have such things cancel each other out (rather than having Cosmic Active Defense trump any eligible attack), I'd probably do it as +50% for 1 instance, +70% for 2, +80% for 3, +90% for 4, and +100% to always trump. However, this is quite the tangent for this thread, so if you wish to discuss it further, I'd suggest opening a new thread.

[JulianLW]

Y'all, thanks for all the great ideas.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

As you are not looking to gain the benefits of All-Out-Defense, I'd call this "Clears the last Maneuver, No new Maneuver granted" -70% if you wanted to use ATR as your basis.

That gives it a 30 point price, which sets it at the same value as an extra attack with multistrike, which covers most of the benefit of an AoA.

This actually sounds like exactly what I had in mind. But I'm curious what people think of both of these limitations:

ATR (Clears last Maneuver Only -70%) [30]

ATR (All-Out Defense Only -60%) [40]

Old-time GMs?