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Old 05-27-2020, 03:48 PM   #31
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

Guns are easy to use with minimal training, but you still need training to have a chance at succeeding at anything in combat, especially under adverse conditions like low lighting. Eight hours of practice with a weapon will familiarize anyone with the type, the action, and the grip, so we are really tallking about the type of gun owner who purchases a pistol and then puts it in their glove compartment for the next year without taking the time to get used to their weapon.
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Old 05-27-2020, 05:26 PM   #32
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by SimonAce View Post
Not really.

Guns are very easy to use. Nearly anyone with a guns in their culture can point a weapon a pull the trigger and hit a target at close range with Default skill (-4) +4 for all out attack and bonus from telegraphed attack.
There has never been a telegraphic attack bonus nor +4 for all out attack on ranged attacks.

Unless by 'close range' you mean 'so close you can literally touch the barrel to the target'. Then Tactical Shooting p25 will give that to you.
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Basic knowledge so ubiquitous in US culture its reasonable to assume that any adult a in the US whose would have default guns skill and not worry about the lack of familiarity. Many rural and small town children 8-10 an up would as well.
It's really truly not.

I mean, the level of basic knowledge you get from seeing an action movie occasionally, yes. Almost everybody's got the background to have the basic gist of what they're looking to accomplish.

But actually having ever handled one, or knowing any details of the mechanics? No. Not really. (Maybe in your environment that is different. Describing the US as having a single culture is largely wrong.)
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:10 PM   #33
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

Watching a movie should be considered at least partial training and in some instances should remove the familiarity penalty. In the case of guns, you learn how to hold the weapon and which end to point at the enemy. You learn that you have to pull the trigger to fire the weapon. You learn that they need reloading and get a rough idea how to do that. You learn a little about recoil. You learn that they make loud noises that can startle people/animals. IMO it is more than enough to give you an advantage over someone who has never seen a gun before. In some cases, such as revolvers, an action movie will teach you all you need to operate (and possibly reload) the weapon. Of course, if you aren't taught to aim properly and shoot steadily, you are unlikely to hit anything.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 05-27-2020 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:47 PM   #34
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Watching a movie should be considered at least partial training and in some instances should remove the familiarity penalty. In the case of guns, you learn how to hold the weapon and which end to point at the enemy. You learn that you have to pull the trigger to fire the weapon. You learn that they need reloading and get a rough idea how to do that. You learn a little about recoil. You learn that they make loud noises that can startle people/animals. IMO it is more than enough to give you an advantage over someone who has never seen a gun before. In some cases, such as revolvers, an action movie will teach you all you need to operate (and possibly reload) the weapon. Of course, if you aren't taught to aim properly and shoot steadily, you are unlikely to hit anything.
The GURPS rules seem pretty clear that watching action movies just means you have a Guns default—not that it eliminates familiarity penalties. The Roman legionnaire suddenly transported to the 21st century, who doesn't know the safety from the trigger, doesn't have a familiarity penalty—he lacks a Guns default entirely.
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:33 PM   #35
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

And will just as likely shoot himself when he attempts to club someone with the pistol. It general, movies just give someone a default. That is why I believe that anyone who drives a car regularly needs to actually purchase the skill.

For example, a DX 10 individual driving a car will have a default of '5' and then a familiarity penalty of -2, giving them a '3', until they spend eight hours behind a wheel. Even routine driving by someone who has not had driver's ed is not for the timid, they will have an effective skill of '7'. Even driving in a empty parking lot, which is a +10 to skill, would only give them an effective skill of 13 (15 when they get familiar with the vehicle).
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:26 AM   #36
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Yes, that is generally why complete amateurs are much more likely to be killed by their own guns than to kill their attacker during a home invasion at night. When you apply -4 for default, -6 for lack of familiarity for type, action, and grip, and a -7 for vision penalties, they will pretty much automatically critically fail. Even 1 CP in Guns would give them a much better chance of not shooting themselves in the foot (400 hours at a firing range).
I think I agree with the earlier points the familiarity penalties kind of infer you are at familiar with some version of the technology in question.

For me The familiarity penalty is the kid of penalty I only really included is other more all encompassing penalties dont apply. Name going off default in thsi example.

or put simply if you've never fired a pistol before in GURPS you are basically already getting a penalty because you are unfamiliar with shooting pistols (the default skill penalty). I don't think you'd be extra unfamiliar with a automatic because the action is different from a revolver a type of pistol you also unfamiliar with.

But someone who's only ever fired automatics might get caught out by a revolver the first few times

Basically to me the familiarity penalty is a more specific sub set of the default penalty in general and applying both might be double dipping. And being unfamiliar with one type of action infers you are basing your shooting of a action you are familiar with

that said were might play up unfamiliarity as being unfamiliar with how a gun actually is made ready to fire, especially under pressure.

Also truly weird guns might be weird enough to warrant extra penalties but then they likely have worse defaults as well

Ultimately all these penalties have to be looked at in play and with the actaul examples in mine and not in abstract, TL penalties are a good example of thus
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:44 AM   #37
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think I agree with the earlier points the familiarity penalties kind of infer you are at familiar with some version of the technology in question.

For me The familiarity penalty is the kid of penalty I only really included is other more all encompassing penalties dont apply. Name going off default in thsi example.

or put simply if you've never fired a pistol before in GURPS you are basically already getting a penalty because you are unfamiliar with shooting pistols (the default skill penalty). I don't think you'd be extra unfamiliar with a automatic because the action is different from a revolver a type of pistol you also unfamiliar with.

But someone who's only ever fired automatics might get caught out by a revolver the first few times

Basically to me the familiarity penalty is a more specific sub set of the default penalty in general and applying both might be double dipping. And being unfamiliar with one type of action infers you are basing your shooting of a action you are familiar with

that said were might play up unfamiliarity as being unfamiliar with how a gun actually is made ready to fire, especially under pressure.

Also truly weird guns might be weird enough to warrant extra penalties but then they likely have worse defaults as well

Ultimately all these penalties have to be looked at in play and with the actaul examples in mine and not in abstract, TL penalties are a good example of thus
Then what about someone who don't have the skill, but spends enough time to get some familiarity with specific kind of pistol? They now know where the safety is, how to pull out and reload the magazine, how the gun sounds and feels like when fired etc.

Without the default penalty, they can't actually get better from that experience. Unless you think that such a small amount of experience is enough to get a dabbler perk or even the full skill?
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

Without the default penalty, they can't actually get better from that experience. Unless you think that such a small amount of experience is enough to get a dabbler perk or even the full skill?
I tend to be generous when allowing a player to spend a dabbler perk or a full point on new skills.
A player that, in game, spend time to get a couple familiarities, followed a basic training session and practiced a bit is certainly entitled to spend the first cp in the skill.

If the player doesn't have the cp to spend ... then I will require the full hundreds of hours of practice, formal teaching, and probably parcel out the evolution along a dabbler perk first.
But if he choose to coalesce his life experience (the cp earned adventuring) into the skill, minimal requirement are more than enough for me.

That said, having just now re-read the guns skill description, I may get back on what I said before and decide that, for that skill, familiarity penalties are not cumulative with default.
Because they are specifically written that way. ("if you are used to x, you have a penalty with y".)
Since I use an houserule for guns familiarities, I never fully paid attention before.
For other skills, I still think familiarity and default can/should be cumulative.
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:17 AM   #39
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
I tend to be generous when allowing a player to spend a dabbler perk or a full point on new skills.
A player that, in game, spend time to get a couple familiarities, followed a basic training session and practiced a bit is certainly entitled to spend the first cp in the skill.

If the player doesn't have the cp to spend ... then I will require the full hundreds of hours of practice, formal teaching, and probably parcel out the evolution along a dabbler perk first.
But if he choose to coalesce his life experience (the cp earned adventuring) into the skill, minimal requirement are more than enough for me.
If they don't have cp to spend, one way to keep skill gain in check while still giving a realistic effect of getting better with some familarity (other than using familarity penalties) would be to temporarily give the benefits of a dabbler perk.

For example, the player says that that he will spend some time practicing with the unfamiliar object before a competition. Sure, that practice won't be completely useless just because he can't or don't want to spend cp. Just that what the character learned will quickly fade unless they spend the time (or cp) needed to solidify it.

Last edited by Andreas; 05-28-2020 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:14 AM   #40
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Nitroglycerin invention date and TL

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
The GURPS rules seem pretty clear that watching action movies just means you have a Guns default—not that it eliminates familiarity penalties. The Roman legionnaire suddenly transported to the 21st century, who doesn't know the safety from the trigger, doesn't have a familiarity penalty—he lacks a Guns default entirely.
That's why I specifically used revolvers as an example. Revolvers don't have a safety. Revolvers don't have magazines. It is pretty easy to learn how to shoot one of these from a movie.
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