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Old 10-25-2019, 01:08 PM   #21
Anthony
 
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
Yes, but there is a Perk that lets you shift that to IQ.
Citation? I've never seen anything of the sort, and it seems ridiculously unbalanced. There's no mention of any such thing in the halfling marksmanship thread.
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Old 10-25-2019, 01:17 PM   #22
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
I chuckle at the thought of a wizard's staff with a scope, bipod, wind gauge, etc.
Why chuckle? Just replace the 'modern' look for the typical wizardly gewgaws that adorn the more 'elaborate' staves...

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3c/40/7a/3...98da7ec01a.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/88/92...0c774fe901.jpg

If instead of just being 'ornamentation' or power augmentation those feathers, crystals on chains, 'dreamcatchers' etc all had a purpose...

And chuckle? Tremble mortal for this guy clearly gets a Tacticool Intimidation bonus!
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Old 10-25-2019, 01:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Citation? I've never seen anything of the sort, and it seems ridiculously unbalanced. There's no mention of any such thing in the halfling marksmanship thread.
I don't know about "switching Innate Attack to IQ", but there is one that swaps it to Perception* and another that let's you use the spell itself instead of Innate Attack (Psychic Guidance), which may be what Kale is thinking of.

Or Kale is thinking of the Attribute Substitution Perk which... well... it's right there in the name.



* Of course I can't find it now and may be thinking of the Psi's Gazer Perk.
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I don't know about "switching Innate Attack to IQ", but there is one that swaps it to Perception* and another that let's you use the spell itself instead of Innate Attack (Psychic Guidance), which may be what Kale is thinking of.

Or Kale is thinking of the Attribute Substitution Perk which... well... it's right there in the name.



* Of course I can't find it now and may be thinking of the Psi's Gazer Perk.
Heh. Most of those things shouldn't be perks in the first place, they should be setting rules (there is nothing inherently wrong with missile spells being targeted with the spell skill, but doing it that way when other people are stuck using Innate Attack is clearly worth more than 1 point).
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Citation? I've never seen anything of the sort, and it seems ridiculously unbalanced. There's no mention of any such thing in the halfling marksmanship thread.
Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 15. Explicitly requires GM agreement, and needs to "make sense."
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:16 PM   #26
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Heh. Most of those things shouldn't be perks in the first place, they should be setting rules (there is nothing inherently wrong with missile spells being targeted with the spell skill, but doing it that way when other people are stuck using Innate Attack is clearly worth more than 1 point).
That's certainly an opinion. I disagree with it, but there we are.

There are pros and cons to Psychic guidance, for instance -5 to your skill to throw missiles in Low Mana zones...

I'm more 'with you' on Attribute Substitution. I'm fine with it if there is a good reason* and it has some drawback if 'overpowered', but in DF, which is Munchkinville anyway, I have zero far less problems with it.


* For instance moving Chi skills from Will to HT or some of them to Perception. I'm far less okay with moving everything to your "primary" stat.

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Old 10-25-2019, 08:28 PM   #27
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Citation? I've never seen anything of the sort, and it seems ridiculously unbalanced. There's no mention of any such thing in the halfling marksmanship thread.
Persons pointing you to PU2 may be thinking of Attribute Substitution which is similar but I would point you to Thaumatology:Magical Styles and the Psychic Guidance Perk on p.29. You must specialize by Missile Spell but it lets you avoid the innate Atack Skill altogether and roll v. your Spell Skill to hit (penalized by range and other factors as normal).

It might give you a 5 pt bonus on one Missile Spell v. putting that cp into Innate Attack Skill assuming a typical build (Fireball-15 v. Innate Attack-10 with an 11 Dex). <shrug> It's hard to "unbalance" things by changing one Missile spell from "won't work in real combat" to "_might_ work in combat".
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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In the interests of Rule of Cool, you could say that it is purely physical and let Mages add all sorts of tacticool gadgets to their staffs to help them aim. I chuckle at the thought of a wizard's staff with a scope, bipod, wind gauge, etc.
aaannndd Martini made a thread for this, that already has a pile of awesome ideas:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=166047
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Old 10-26-2019, 05:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Citation?
Attribute Substitution is in PU2 p 15; you can rebase any one skill on any one other attribute, up to 4 Attribute Substitution Perks max. Thaumatology: Magical Styles (p22) adds a little variation, putting the cap at the GM's discretion. But just for the "throwing" part, the mage wouldn't need to shift the spell, but just the relevant Innate Attack skill.
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Old 10-27-2019, 03:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

Does anyone know how being handcuffed would work in respect to throwing a missile spell, or using Innate Attack in general?

If something like Lightning Bolt only requires a FINGER to be pointed at the enemy then you could probably manage that pretty easily even though being cuffed would interfere with an actual throwing motion like it would melee combat.

I'd imagine having your wrists tied together wouldn't impede firing a gun as much as it would throwing a knife, since it's just point+trigger without needing exaggerated motions.

The less that binding would impede your ability to use your power, the more versatile it is. What are the tradeoffs? Seems like handcuffs would affect arm DX more than hand DX, so maybe whether an attack uses "Limb DX" or "Extremity DX" could come with benefits and drawbacks?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I have begun to come to the idea that more rolling at the table is not a good thing.
Complementary Skills (Social Engineering pg 21) are at the GM's option, and if it came with a risk of losing accuracy it might not be something many mages would try anyway, even with decent skill.

Maybe so fewer mages are doing them, the option should only be available to those who have at least 1 point in Throwing, just like you need 1 full point in Acrobatics to use Acrobatic Dodge (B375) ?

Or sans rolling, it might be something like a graded bonus to aim (like the Accurate enhancement) paired with being more noticable (bonus to block/dodge) similar to using a Telegraphic Attack?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
You don't. As has been mention time and again, (by RAW) you roll to cast before the enlargement rounds so the spell is already cast.
I was probably thinking it was casting due to B241/M13's bit about the effect of using a Blocking Spell:
If you are holding a Missile spell, you cannot enlarge it further but may retain it for later use.
Since this works "exactly as if you had failed the Will roll to resist a distraction" I guess that means if you fail your Will roll that similarly can't use Enlarge on a missile spell either?

Since the full cost of the spell hasn't been paid (since the energy you put in to Enlarge enjoys high-skill cost discounts too) it's feels like it's cast>cast>cast except unlike other spells, you can abandon it (or be interrupted) partway and still have a functioning non-maximal version?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
In what manner? Both are (if enlargening) taking Concentration maneuvers, so by the RAW both are as "distracted/encumbered/unable to act" as the other.
I mean in terms of stealth or being able to interrupt via anti-noise fields or grappling. If someone did need words/gestures to Enlarge then they wouldn't be as flexible as someone who didn't.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Now... if Enlargening was disruptable, and being attacked required a Will roll to not drop the Missile, similar to a Will roll to keep casting on a long cast spell... then being able to embiggen the Missile without being obvious about it could be of use.
This seems like an actual possibility, depending on how B231/M13's text on Blocking Spells is read?

The automatic interruption of concentrating from a Blocking Spell results in being unable to use Concentrate-to-Enlarge on Missile spells... does this mean that losing concentration through other means (failed Will roll on a parry or when suffering Shock from an injury) would also prevent Enlarging?

Or maybe the factor has something to do with the inability to cast additional spells while holding a missile spell? The "cannot cast another spell" restriction is why "Dissipating Held Melee and Missile Spells" is important, especially since that's a different verb/box from "Canceling" so it might not cost 1 energy to do?

In that case, I'd like to know how using a Blocking Spell while holding a Missile Spell would work if you have the perk Missile Spell Mastery which does allow casting spells (at -3) while maintaining your missile in hand...

Maybe if the "you can't enlarge anymore" limit imposed by a Blocking Spell is a compromise because "normally you couldn't cast another spell without losing your Explosive Fireball altogether!" then if that's no longer the case, perhaps there could be an option like casting a Blocking Spell at -3 to skill (like other spells) where it doesn't prevent using Enlarge?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
For instance if they only get the "cost reduction" by continuing to make skill rolls each Enlargement round and could be disrupted...
That'd certainly make constructing the giant fireballs a lot more interesting and suspenseful, and give a purpose to doing something like an All-Out Concentrate (lose defenses, +1 to skill) for your Enlarges.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
There are pros and cons to Psychic guidance, for instance -5 to your skill to throw missiles in Low Mana zones...
Or -10 in Very Low Mana... I hadn't thought of this problem!

On the other hand, I guess if you were -4 to DX from someone grappling your arm, you could avoid that problem using Psychic Guidance.

PG would MIGHT be useful if you happened to be using Enchanted Items since those can have very high skills built into them. I don't know if that would be a correct interpretation though... if it's YOUR perk, then would you still be using YOUR skill (which you may not even have) in the spell to target a foe, or could your Perk allow you to use the Enchanted Item's skill for targeting?

"Psychic Guidance (Enchantment)" being an Enchantment-college spell that could be cast on items could be one interesting option for helping out those who want to use magic fireball staffs but have horrible (or absent) DX or Innate Attack.
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