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Old 12-06-2022, 11:00 AM   #1
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

Please ignore this thread if you're not interested in the premise or in wargaming. My interest here is in exploring how mechanically strong doomchildren are, relative to delvers, to see if their reputation is justified or inflated. This is essentially a system question about the rules of DFRPG, not a roleplaying question or GM adventure construction question.

Posit: you're playing Dungeon Fantasy in Dungeon Keeper mode, which means you play the bad guys and you're expecting an incoming stream of delvers who want to kill your monsters and take their stuff.

You've splurged on two dozen doomchildren, but you neglected to buy any furniture besides doors. You can dig any passages in the stone that you want, but for sake of discussion and specificity let's say you dug this dungeon (by Dyson): https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpres...vel9.jpg?w=529 where every square is 2 yards, and doors are 1 yard wide.

Your primary defenses are the doomchildren. You can place them wherever you want and give them any instructions you want, but once the game starts you can't control them any more--they will simply execute your instructions as given to the GM.

You're not sure exactly what delvers the GM has rolled up to assault your level, but from past experience you anticipate 2-3 waves of 1-3 250 point delvers, of all professions.

Where do you place your doomchildren and what instructions do you give them in order to beat the level? (I will post my own ideas in a separate post.)
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Old 12-08-2022, 10:01 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

So its roughly what, three to one odds?

What happens if you stick three right next to each door, with orders to hide until someone comes through and then attack the first person through? It seems the key to success is mostly just avoiding getting hit by ranged attacks. The other strat would be to hide until the group is in the room, then rush, hoping to hit everyone in the same explosion.

I must admit I'm a little uncertain about what counts as "clearing" the dungeon. Do they need to visit each room? just go down the stairs? Can I reset after each run, moving more monsters to "active" locations? Doomchildren have a habit of killing each other, or so I understand.
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Old 12-08-2022, 10:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I must admit I'm a little uncertain about what counts as "clearing" the dungeon. Do they need to visit each room? just go down the stairs? Can I reset after each run, moving more monsters to "active" locations? Doomchildren have a habit of killing each other, or so I understand.
For you, the objective is not to "clear" the dungeon, it's to hold it until the GM stops throwing delvers at you. I.e. your goal is to hold the dungeon long enough to accomplish your evil goals: find an evil artifact, entice a certain number of peasants to join your cult, kidnap a princess, or similar. The exact length of time is abstracted because it doesn't matter, but in narrative terms we'll say it represents 2-3 weeks. (But doomchildren don't heal in between waves, for simplicity. I.e. you bought the cheap doomchildren with Unhealing (Total).)

Edit: yes, you can instruct your doomchildren to move around between delver waves. Basically anything you can describe in a forum post, you can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
So its roughly what, three to one odds?

What happens if you stick three right next to each door, with orders to hide until someone comes through and then attack the first person through? It seems the key to success is mostly just avoiding getting hit by ranged attacks. The other strat would be to hide until the group is in the room, then rush, hoping to hit everyone in the same explosion.
I have some guesses but let me run this scenario (using a Random Delver Table and DFRPG rules) and get back to you. There's only six doors plus one secret door, so unless you tell me otherwise I'll just pick a bend in a corridor and put three doomchildren there as if it were a door, since your goal is simply to avoid taking missile fire.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 12-08-2022 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 12-10-2022, 10:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

Do these doomchildren die/explode at zero, or after a major wound, or do they roll vs. HT at -HP like a PC? I've always run mine pretty fragile. I suppose there is nothing stopping me from injuring them all to 1 hp for starters.

I've been considering dropping them onto the delvers from above. Consider something like this:

As they descend the stairs into the first room, the delvers see spears standing up from the floor, as if a spear trap had been set off earlier. They can squeeze between them to proceed. A group of doomchildren are watching from the secret door, taking a wait maneuver until the delvers get far enough into the room. When they trigger, they charge up to 10 hexes into the midst of the invaders (some may be able to combine this with an all-out attack with their knives if the delvers are within 5 yards of the secret door). Meanwhile, a group of doomchildren leap into pits that drop them into the room (with hatches at the bottom to hide the holes from observant delvers). They land on the spears, taking double falling damage. That should create quite a boom.
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Old 12-10-2022, 11:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Do these doomchildren die/explode at zero, or after a major wound, or do they roll vs. HT at -HP like a PC? I've always run mine pretty fragile. I suppose there is nothing stopping me from injuring them all to 1 hp for starters.
I'll let you have them cut their own throats with an attack and die immediately, if you instruct them to do so. Otherwise they die when they fail a death check or hit - 5 xHP.

They have Berserk so it's not impossible for them to last all the way down to -5 x HP.

Quote:
I've been considering dropping them onto the delvers from above. Consider something like this:

As they descend the stairs into the first room, the delvers see spears standing up from the floor, as if a spear trap had been set off earlier. They can squeeze between them to proceed. A group of doomchildren are watching from the secret door, taking a wait maneuver until the delvers get far enough into the room. When they trigger, they charge up to 10 hexes into the midst of the invaders (some may be able to combine this with an all-out attack with their knives if the delvers are within 5 yards of the secret door). Meanwhile, a group of doomchildren leap into pits that drop them into the room (with hatches at the bottom to hide the holes from observant delvers). They land on the spears, taking double falling damage. That should create quite a boom.
In this scenario you haven't purchased any pits or spear traps, but you could have them Move and Attack themselves to cut their own throats instead. Do you want to do that, and if so how many?
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Old 12-10-2022, 11:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Do these doomchildren die/explode at zero, or after a major wound, or do they roll vs. HT at -HP like a PC? I've always run mine pretty fragile. I suppose there is nothing stopping me from injuring them all to 1 hp for starters.
The major threat from doomchildren isn't exploding, it's knife 18 with effective ST 18, combined with berserk and HT 14; having them die at zero makes them a lot less dangerous.
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Old 12-10-2022, 04:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The major threat from doomchildren isn't exploding, it's knife 18 with effective ST 18, combined with berserk and HT 14; having them die at zero makes them a lot less dangerous.
Ahhh... now they make more sense. I always assumed they were intended to be like mobile bombs who hug the delvers and explode. Seemed like they would be so much more effective with only 1 or 2 HP.
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Old 12-10-2022, 05:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
In this scenario you haven't purchased any pits or spear traps, but you could have them Move and Attack themselves to cut their own throats instead. Do you want to do that, and if so how many?
Ahh, I saw the bit about digging passages in the stone and figured we could dig pits and whatnot. Ok, no extra features.

After glancing at the map again, I'd put a dozen doomkids behind the secret door to follow the delvers and block their escape. Then four in each passage from the next room (in the west passage, two would hide in each alcove). They would remain hidden until the delvers were close, then charge. Once they charge, all of them should engage. Prioritize attacking casters and weakly armored targets, ideally surrounding them. Close combat when possible. Limit movement of the delvers. If any delver tries to break away, use their Move 10 to catch up and engage.
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Old 12-12-2022, 05:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
So its roughly what, three to one odds?

What happens if you stick three right next to each door, with orders to hide until someone comes through and then attack the first person through?
Okay, I've run this a bunch of times now with various delvers and here are some generalizations:

1.) Doomchildren are faster than most delvers, so whoever opens the door tends to get moderately mangled at least some of the time unless they open the door using e.g. a rope tied to the door handle, or plant caltrops before opening it. I restricted these tactics to thieves because it's idiomatic for them, and because backstabbing turned out to be suicide so messing around with gizmos like caltrops and ropes was their only viable niche. (I ruled that the door made sneaking up on the waiting doomchildren infeasible.)

2.) Half-ogre swashbucklers who aim for the legs are amazing in this scenario because Speed 7.25 lets them actually disable the doomchildren before they can stab. This goes double if they use a long knife (Main Gauche) instead of a rapier in order to parry in close combat.

3.) Knights are so good at surviving explosions that it feels unfair, which is good because this 3-at-a-time scenario is pretty basic. Large area fire explosions can't target the eyes, so as long as the knight steps backwards before finishing off a doomchild, we're talking 3d6/3 (3ish) vs. DR 7-8ish, which winds up hurting the other doomchildren more than the knight. Barbarians aren't bad in this scenario either.

4.) Wizards and druids are terrific, obviously. So much so it's actually not fun to use them as the OpFor: Illusions, Concussion, Glue, Darkness + Dark Vision, Wizard Eye, Great Haste... How is a Dungeon Keeper supposed to compete?

5.) Bards also turn out to be surprisingly good, at least against this basic strategy. I have my doubts about how well the Song of Command strategy would do against Dalin's strategy of dogpiling 24 doomchildren at once, but against 3 at a time it actually just lets the bard accumulate a bunch of minions.

Long Knife Knight + Elven Bard wound up being a surprisingly strong duo, and Druid + Weapon Thief + Barbarian as a second wave wound up usually finishing off the dungeon.

Does anyone want to see detailed logs of example runs, or shall we move along to more advanced tactics that challenge Knights, Bards, and Wizards, like Dalin's surround-and-destroy strategy? (We could start talking pit traps and spear traps too.)

I wound up automating enough of the fights that I've got, like, 60% of a combat simulator. I could throw a UI around it if anyone wants to visualize doomchildren mangling delvers and then blowing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
After glancing at the map again, I'd put a dozen doomkids behind the secret door to follow the delvers and block their escape.
This! This is why desecrators/adventurers/delvers should search for secret doors! It's not so much about finding hidden treasures/secret levels, although that's nice. It's mostly so you don't get ambushed from behind. GMs should place secret doors where they'd be advantageous to the locale's defenders, for sallies and counterattacks.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 12-12-2022 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 12-13-2022, 07:23 AM   #10
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Default Re: Doomchildren: Dungeon Keeper tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Does anyone want to see detailed logs of example runs, or shall we move along to more advanced tactics that challenge Knights, Bards, and Wizards, like Dalin's surround-and-destroy strategy? (We could start talking pit traps and spear traps too.)
I'm good with moving on to more complicated strategies.



I am curious what the "stats" on this strategy are. How often does each wave make it through? What's the average number of delvers killed?



Quote:

I wound up automating enough of the fights that I've got, like, 60% of a combat simulator. I could throw a UI around it if anyone wants to visualize doomchildren mangling delvers and then blowing up.
Several of us have such a thing floating around. I'm kind of interested in seeing the code for how you did it...
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