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Old 06-21-2021, 02:36 PM   #21
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I'm not sure if GURPS cares to distinguish between the effectiveness between parrying with the whippy part and the handle; presumably, the -2 on the parry was to simulate the difficulty of parrying with said whippy part, but no part of the weapon's text suggests that. *shrug*
The -2 is for Parrying with the handle, just like the -2 on flails is for Parrying with the handle there. It's not a good Parrying surface, and the whippy/flaily bit hanging around doesn't help matters, but at least it's capable of Parrying without some crazy technique that should probably require a dedicated Ready.

And the full 8 lb shouldn't be counted when figuring out what it can Parry without breaking, but your weapon is unbreakable anyway, so you're good there. It also shouldn't count when determining if a weapon Parrying it risks breakage; I don't recall if there are any rules covering that issue, but then again her super-special-awesome whip breaking lesser weapons is probably perfectly fine.
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

Now, I think I should go more into detail behind the design intentions of the character. It is in fact meant to seem superficial at the surface, but there's a lot of smart commentary on pop culture, the history of fantasy gaming, and feminism put into Adeline's characterization.

The "Pop Feminism" (Popular, viral feminism that's so shallow in its reasoning and logic that it ultimately detracts from the goals of truly meaningful feminism) of today says that the sexualization of women is inherently objectifying them, that sexy women depicted in fiction only serve to please the patriarchy. The glaring problem with this is that it completely disregards the women in our society that appreciate women's bodies, the people who are non-binary who appreciate women, or even the people who simply have unconventional gender expression for their binary gender. Taking pleasure from female sexuality is not exclusive to toxic masculinity. Beauty-shaming feminine icons within fiction is not conducive to the empowerment of women, and to suggest otherwise like today's Pop Feminism is to unwittingly feed into the toxic narrative.

This does in fact tie directly into Adeline's character design. On the meta level, she's a rebel against destructive contemporary trends within feminism in gaming, a anti-heroine who says "I can be sexy, and empowered by it!", while simultaneously taking the very tropes within fiction that supposedly objectify women (one could argue that the tropes are used in fiction with ignorance to realism, but why not have them be as effective as they believe themselves to be? Run with the gonzo!) and go full ham with them to humorous effect, taking what was just benign fan-service and making it even more entertaining.

Part of the conceit of the Dungeon Fantasy genre is the multitude of tropes within it that, in any other context, would at least be distasteful to the prudish or reason to not touch the genre to begin with because of their nonsensical logic. DF, at least as I understand it, assumes this absurdity to be the default realism expected to be played out in the typical campaign. Adeline just takes these expectations to their natural conclusion. Heck, we've got homoerotic half-naked Barbarians with Rage Powers running around, so why question it?
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Old 06-21-2021, 03:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You don't Parry with the whippy part, you Parry with the handle. Part of me wonders if one could effectively install a hilt on a whip's handle...
As in a whip handle which looks like a sword hilt with quillons or tsuba?

It would be a bit unusual, but there's no reason why you couldn't, particularly if you used a tsuba-type guard. The base of a whip is sufficiently rigid that the "tail" seldom doubles back in a way that it would interfere with the guard. The only time it is likely is if you're fast-drawing a coiled whip. In that case, the coils might get tangled in the guard.

"Drover" type whips have handles which are long enough that they could conceivably used to parry like a baton if properly reinforced.

The only drawback is that a parry attempt might damage or break the whip , since the braids which make up the thong or falls must be firmly attached to the handle.
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Old 06-21-2021, 03:11 PM   #24
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
The lack of transparency in your reply leaves something to be desired. Care to elaborate?
Why have a skill at all? For when you need to roll against it. When will you need to roll vs. Brawling? In close combat (whip has Reach 1+), when you're without your weapon of choice, and when you're fighting. So Brawling will be rolled as a last ditch effort to defeat an opponent when other options don't work - or simply to use the pummeling rules from Martial Arts with that whip handle when an opponent gets too close. In other words, it's a skill worth having and could potentially be the difference between life and death for your PC.

Why is 16 so much more valuable than 15?*

For starters, it brings your unarmed parry up to 11 from 10 - in other words, an increase to nearly 2/3 chance success from 1/2 chance success. This is the greatest benefit.

Second, rolling against 16 rather than 15, you are going to roll a success 49 out of 50 times rather than 19 out of 20 times. You'll roll a critical success more than twice as often (9.3% of the time rather than 4.6% of the time) and - more importantly - roll a critical failure 66% less often: only on an 18 (1 out of 216 possibilities, or less than .5% of the time) instead of on a 17 or 18 (3 possibilities out of 216).

So for 1 CP to bring Brawling from 15 to 16, your character becomes a LOT more reliable in close combat - a situation where you probably want the best possible odds. That 1 CP to bring Brawling up to 16 is the first point I'd spend on this character.

*I'm not a mathematician, just somewhat familiar with the breakpoints with 3d6.
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Old 06-21-2021, 03:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The -2 is for Parrying with the handle, just like the -2 on flails is for Parrying with the handle there. It's not a good Parrying surface, and the whippy/flaily bit hanging around doesn't help matters, but at least it's capable of Parrying without some crazy technique that should probably require a dedicated Ready.

And the full 8 lb shouldn't be counted when figuring out what it can Parry without breaking, but your weapon is unbreakable anyway, so you're good there. It also shouldn't count when determining if a weapon Parrying it risks breakage; I don't recall if there are any rules covering that issue, but then again her super-special-awesome whip breaking lesser weapons is probably perfectly fine.
Do you mind providing a page reference or rules text quote? Or is this simply logic inferred from the rules? I apologize for my lack of clarity on this. Perhaps this is besides the point though, as the whip is not operating on rational realism anyways. Since this new version Fiend Slayer is mostly the Diabolical Whip with the serial numbers filed off, I too perhaps inferred from its rules and perceived intended realism that it straight up parries weapons effortlessly but I think my understanding of the RAW for the stats is in line with what was intended by the book. It is much less the hyperrealistic whip you appear to be envisioning and much more like the incredibly fantastic whip that the Balrog in LOTR wields (sans the flames, but as written they strongly suggest putting the Flaming Weapon enchantment on it). Its nonsense fantasy physics enable it to perform far more better than what a ordinary whip can do... which was my intent from the beginning with how I designed it, but Kromm coincidently had a more eloquent approach that I've opted to use instead. All I had to change was the morality detection bit really, as it coincidently had the enhanced intimidation factor that I was trying to achieve with the built in Combat Schtick Perk I tried to implement before. The coincidence in similarity of design intent is so coincidental that it almost feels like fate led me to this! :)
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Old 06-21-2021, 05:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
*snippy*
All good points that I probably could've noticed if my brain wasn't so ADHD-addled. Can't argue with the math! :^P

I could argue that she might want to still only Brawling-15... applying my previous discussion on the meta-balance of not wanting to front-load characters. I won't rehash that here though. There's also the meta consideration of the expectancy as a player to design a character that doesn't let down the other characters. What if they're similarly suboptimal, then it's not out of place? Or is there an emphasis on the characters covering each others backs when it comes to competency? These are all questions to be asked during whatever the "Session Zero" happens to be. Of course, we don't have that luxury as this is just a character pre-generated and expected to be modified as necessary for the GM's particular specifications for their campaign. That's probably way more analysis needed for why I may or may not want to throw just one more point into Brawling though.

Hmm... that last level of Blinding Strike could get cut perhaps. Getting that extra reaction time for initiative also makes for better survivability, but it appears that the extra point in Brawling is more crucial.
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Old 06-22-2021, 06:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Do you mind providing a page reference or rules text quote? Or is this simply logic inferred from the rules?
Inferred from reality, with a touch of the rules involved. Something that's just a flexible weapon with no real parrying surface, would likely be Parry No. For your character and weapon, of course, stating the Parries are actually the character knocking attacks aside with the whippy part is perfectly acceptable - I was responding to how a less-cinematic character would Parry with a normal whip.
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Old 06-22-2021, 05:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: [DF] Swashbucklers... but with whips!

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Inferred from reality, with a touch of the rules involved. Something that's just a flexible weapon with no real parrying surface, would likely be Parry No. For your character and weapon, of course, stating the Parries are actually the character knocking attacks aside with the whippy part is perfectly acceptable - I was responding to how a less-cinematic character would Parry with a normal whip.
Hmm, flew right over my head! I assumed it was mentioned in the context of the character and her weapon, and from scrutinizing the rules text for the Diabolical Whip stats that I've based the current version of Fiend Slayer off of makes it pretty unambiguous that it has none of the faults of a regular whip when it comes to parrying. Since it doesn't require to Ready maneuvers because it simply never becomes Unready after being used, and doesn't require Ready maneuvers for adjusting Reach, it very nearly moves as the wielder wills it to to some significant degree. And since it seems to move in mysterious ways, perhaps it also just selectively goes rigid to better Parry attacks. That's how I understand the reasoning for the crunch it has in Fantasy-Tech 2 anyways, and that seems to support the very blatant Balrog whip inspiration for the Diabolical Whip. It's been a bit since I've watched LOTR movies but I remember that whip seemingly working much like how Kromm statted out the whip.
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