Temporary Disadvantage on on fast-switching advantages

[CeeDub]

Salutations!

The description for the Temporary Disadvantage limitation says it can only be applied to switchable advantages that take at least one second to (de)activate.

First, why can this limitation not be applied to advantages that are Reflexive or can be switched as a free action? I don't see much of a difference - the disadvantage stays on exactly as long as the underlying advantage.

Second, how would the limitation value change if that were the case? Is that completely illegal according to the RAW? Could you apply the Reduced Time or Reflexive modifier as a limitation on the limitation, e.g. TD (Mute) is -25% and with Reflexive (-40%) that becomes -15%? Something else entirely?

[Culture20]

I think the idea is to prevent a -80% temporary disad for an ability that can be switched on reflexively, used, and switched off in a fraction of a second (maybe multiple times). Who cares if you're a quadriplegic for 0.0001 seconds? You barely have time to start falling to the ground; your body just shudders for a second.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Culture20

I think the idea is to prevent a -80% temporary disad for an ability that can be switched on reflexively, used, and switched off in a fraction of a second (maybe multiple times). Who cares if you're a quadriplegic for 0.0001 seconds? You barely have time to start falling to the ground; your body just shudders for a second.

That, or which is only on during your turn, hence doesn't allow anybody else to take advantage of your weakness, because during their turns you don't have it. It's one of those occasional attempts to kill munchkin exploits for groups that don't like rules that involve the GM making decisions - it's otherwise completely covered by the "if it isn't a problem it isn't a disadvantage or limitation" rule.

The other reasonable fix would be the temporary disadvantage always lasts at least the default 10 second advantage duration, no matter how quickly you stop using the advantage, but that makes it more a side effect than modelling a drawback of the advantaged state.

Second, how would the limitation value change if that were the case? Is that completely illegal according to the RAW? Could you apply the Reduced Time or Reflexive modifier as a limitation on the limitation, e.g. TD (Mute) is -25% and with Reflexive (-40%) that becomes -15%? Something else entirely?

I get suspicious when I see modifiers to modifiers. You should always vet modifiers for reasonableness for this particular advantage even in their RAW forms. If you want to modify how they work away from the RAW, the odds the result is going to meet that reasonableness test drop rather quickly and they're probably going to end up repriced by GM fiat anyway. The reverse applies to, if you want one the RAW say you can't take, you can anyway if it meets that reasonableness test.

In the particular case here, I'd have no problem allowing TD (Mute) on something that turns on reflexively but can't be shut off for a long enough for social interaction to matter, and conversely usually wouldn't allow it on advantages that do last for a while if they are primarily about stealth or an attack, because it's not a limitation - you didn't plan on talking to people you are attacking anyway.

[CeeDub]

Hm, maybe I should give more details on what I have in mind.

I'm tinkering with a supers character who can become Insubstantial. Since the RAW explicitly state that insubstantial characters do not make noise when they move, I thought that not being able to make sounds audible in the material world would be a reasonable side-effect. Hence, TD: Mute.

But this would prevent me from making Insubstantial reflexive, or fast-acting by applying a level of Reduced Time. I don't see a way to exploit this, but maybe I'm just not enough of a Munchkin. :)

[Emerald Cat]

My advice would be to build a version of Insubstantial that is on for extended periods, so that the TD: Mute is actually a disadvantage. Then buy your reflexive defensive ability as an alternative ability at 1/5th cost.

I think this is reasonable, given that you won't need your reflexive Insubstantiality while already Insubstantial.

Although, you may need to buy the reflexive version of Insubstantial as the alt. ability depending on how the point values work out.

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

My advice would be to build a version of Insubstantial that is on for extended periods, so that the TD: Mute is actually a disadvantage. Then buy your reflexive defensive ability as an alternative ability at 1/5th cost...

This is a reasonable solution. But you could use the Minimum Duration limitation and not need an alternate ability. Less than 1 hour (say 1 second) is -0%, but would allow TD (Mute) to work with reflexive insubstantial. The GM may require more time (I could see 3-5 seconds in this case), but considering the reason even 1 second would extremely limit munchkin possibilities.

Insubstantial (Reflexive, +40% ; Minimum Duration (1 second), -0% ; TD (Mute), -25%) [92]

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

My advice would be to build a version of Insubstantial that is on for extended periods, so that the TD: Mute is actually a disadvantage. Then buy your reflexive defensive ability as an alternative ability at 1/5th cost.

I think this is reasonable, given that you won't need your reflexive Insubstantiality while already Insubstantial.

Nice.

Just to be clear, both abilities would be exactly the same, except one gets Reflexive (+40%) and Minimum Duration (-0%), the other gets Alternative Ability (x1/5), correct?

[lvalero]

You might as well have the following disadvantage.

Mute + Accesibility Only while insubstantial.

To price it I would rule that you have Mute -25 PLUS Non-Mute +25 only while substantial (-10%) for a net total of -3 points

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

Nice.

Just to be clear, both abilities would be exactly the same, except one gets Reflexive (+40%) and Minimum Duration (-0%), the other gets Alternative Ability (x1/5), correct?

For the instant defense, you also want Unconscious and Uncontrollable. It's automatic. You don't need conscious control of the defense version since you've got conscious control over the extended version. Likely also Can Carry Objects, possibly Affects Substantial if you have any ongoing abilities you don't want to interrupt. See Powers p119.

Powers also suggests Partial Change. But that's maybe a better topic for the other thread.

[CeeDub]

So, like this?

Insubstantiality (Can Carry Objects (Up to Light Encumbrance), +20%; Super, -10%; Temporary Disadvantage: Mute, -25%; Uncontrollable, -10%; Unconscious Only, -20%; Reflexive, +40%; Minimum Duration (1 sec), +0%) [76]

Insubstantiality (Can Carry Objects (Up to Light Encumbrance), +20%; Super, -10%; Temporary Disadvantage: Mute, -25%; Alternate Ability, x0.2) [14]