Artillery

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This seems extra wonky to me. Let's consider the M224 60mm Mortar. It is designed to easily be both a direct fire and indirect fire weapon.

Mortar is indirect fire weapon.No matter how small curve of parabola is.

Situation A):

fire at target hidden behind hill:

As discussed before ...FO gives coordinates..plotter calculates shoot.FO must have visual to target OR hes making "educated guess" upon some parameters.
Plotter cant do math w/o FObserver.

Sit B): You have visual to target:
Plotter can do math without FO

60 mm Mortars are used usually in Infantry Companies to add more punch and usually consist of crew of 3 (1 carries tube,2nd bipod,3rdammo in backpack rack designed for it::>extra ammo can be distributed among squad mortar is attached to).There are usually 2 60 mm mortars per one company.

Not all armies use them,though lately their number in increasing radically.
In Croatian army they are standard for mountain units and are used extensively in professional guard units.

I think USA units also started to use them in increasing numbers while German military dont use them at all(only 120 mm).

You can look at those small mortars(60 mm) as heavy machine-guns(also 3 man crew...one carrying "stand"(bipod) another barrel 3rd ammo...with excess ammo distributed in squad to which heavy machine gun is attached).

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by copeab

Let's say the gun crew is five men. A single roll is more likely to succeed than a group of five roll which all have to succeed. A critical failure is also five times more likely. Hardly seems worth it to me.

If you want the abilities of each crewman to "matter" then make one roll against their average skill. Players can take turns making this roll if desired.

Crew as I said above is 3 man.You can make Crew(mortar) roll to see how fast can they deploy or fire it.
Team leaders leadership can be used to "shave off" some time.
While there is only plotters(guy who does math when behind obstacle or "eyeballing",with help of tables which hes supposed to fully remember, if direct los) roll to see where it will land.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I thought this might be the case (and as I mention above, should be the case). The familiarity penalties would make a good deal more sense then, for instance. However why then do the loaders of a piece get to roll ST-based Artillery?

Also how does Artillery skill work without an FO (say for TL1-5 pieces)?

On 60 mm there is no ST roll(those mines are very light)...ST is applicable with heavy arty weapons.

TL1-5 has "plotter" guy who is "targeting" them.Rest of crew is just preparing weapon...better crew ...higher rate of fire.

Usually 1st shoot is used to get "bearing" and from there accommodate for difference.
It is very rare occurrence for 1st shoot to be dead on target(today with high tech it is possible but still you can assume that 1st shoot missed by some margin).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Mortar is indirect fire weapon.No matter how small curve of parabola is.

Nope. While all mortars are high angle fire weapons they can be fired in "direct lay" where the gunner aims the weapon.

Sit B): You have visual to target:
Plotter can do math without FO

On a direct lay the gun crew lays in the weapon without a call for fire or commands from the FDC. The gunner sights in the weapon on the target not on an aiming stake.

The reason why I specifically the M224 is that it is designed to be fire-able without a bipod. It has a trigger grip which controls the firing pin and a water level based range scale to give you the proper elevation.

On 60 mm there is no ST roll(those mines are very light)...ST is applicable with heavy arty weapons.

My point is that if the Artillery skill is meant to be the skill of Fire Direction then this text in Basic Set is confusing (for any piece from a trebuchet to an orbital grav gun).

TL1-5 has "plotter" guy who is "targeting" them.Rest of crew is just preparing weapon...better crew ...higher rate of fire.

Usually 1st shoot is used to get "bearing" and from there accommodate for difference.

My point is that the rules for indirect fire support in High-Tech are only applicable for High (and possibly Ultra) Tech pieces. Which makes sense, but means that Low-Tech needs to have the rules for low tech pieces.

It is very rare occurrence for 1st shoot to be dead on target(today with high tech it is possible but still you can assume that 1st shoot missed by some margin).

Depends on the FDC and FO; first round fire for effects are not uncommon with skilled personnel.

Let's say the gun crew is five men. A single roll is more likely to succeed than a group of five roll which all have to succeed. A critical failure is also five times more likely. Hardly seems worth it to me.

If you want the abilities of each crewman to "matter" then make one roll against their average skill. Players can take turns making this roll if desired.

Yes, I've considered this. Ideally there should be some way to get that single Artillery roll for all firing pieces that the rules in High-Tech use.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Nope. While all mortars are high angle fire weapons they can be fired in "direct lay" where the gunner aims the weapon.
...snip...

Mortar has to low muzzle velocity to be called "Direct fire weapon" as opposed to cannons or recoilless cannons.

Hence Indirect fire weapon.

Yes,ALL 60 mm Mortars can be used manually(w/o bipod) but accuracy drops significantly.

"plotter" = gunner in 3 man team and I didnt wanted to confuse issue more (for people without experience with light mortars) by stating that "he is aiming"(hence words calculating/doing math)

Light mortar ,should be categorised as Heavy Infantry weapon and not artillery piece ... but than wed run into problems with 84 mm mortars and add more confusion(IMO for Generic system it is fine as it is in book).

In rl, it would be Artillery(light mortar) speciality most likely(with unfamiliarity penalty for heavier mortars and no knowledge of Howitzers,pure default)

As,your own experience can attest...theyre very desirable weapon for infantry platoon/company and very very flexible.

Edit: hehe,as you said:You have 1st hand expireance on them with training.I just had 1 day of "training" on them and it was looong time ago(Scouts are supposed to learn variety of weapons to use ... though thats just basics)

Edit2: off topic...Funny thing about Scouts/rangers and such units is amount of time you spend in class.I had to learn to recognise ALL types of hardware by colour picture and black/white silhouette for USSR east pact and for NATO weapons and know their stats/capability.Many many hours in classroom ,roflol,and than some in field to test classroom knowledge.
Just wanted to rant a tad since people are not aware of that fact.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Icelander

And according to Spaceships they need both Gunner and Artillery if they mean to use both direct and indirect fire with their main guns.

You don't need to resort to a supplement for that: that's explicit for the description of the Gunner and Artillery skills in the Basic Set.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

You don't need to resort to a supplement for that: that's explicit for the description of the Gunner and Artillery skills in the Basic Set.

I should have thought so, but not everyone appears to read that text in the same way.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

You don't need to resort to a supplement for that: that's explicit for the description of the Gunner and Artillery skills in the Basic Set.

It's explicit in the text, sure, but it hardly makes any sense. The action of loading and firing a piece is the same in direct or indirect fire, why should it use different skills? The only difference is how the piece is laid in.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's explicit in the text, sure, but it hardly makes any sense. The action of loading and firing a piece is the same in direct or indirect fire, why should it use different skills? The only difference is how the piece is laid in.

There are edge cases, sure, but the line between skills has to be drawn somewhere. And while using mortars in the two roles might differ little (although I believe that I'd use Artillery for mortars in all cases, as the fire is always indirect), there is clearly a difference betwen aiming a trebuchet and aiming a rifle.

And similar actions using different skills is not at all uncommon. Compare drawing a bead and pulling a trigger. That's Guns (Rifle) with an M-16, Guns Sport (Rifle) with an airsoft replica of it, Liquid Projector for a squirt gun and Beam Weapons (Rifle) when using MILES gear.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Agramer

"plotter" = gunner in 3 man team and I didnt wanted to confuse issue more (for people without experience with light mortars) by stating that "he is aiming"(hence words calculating/doing math)

Except that he is not plotting. He doesn't use a plotting board, ballistic mortar computer or any fire control equipment. He aims the weapon by pointing it the direction of the target. It's very similar to firing an M203 but in GURPS that uses Guns.