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Old 03-24-2019, 01:17 PM   #1
FireHorse
 
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Default IQ for Fatigue…?

I have read the various discussions about distinguishing between Fatigue and actual Wounds/Damage to ST, and I think that makes good sense.

However, I wonder if it might make even more sense for Fatigue to be counted against IQ, rather than ST — or at least, Fatigue from spell-casting.

But then I also wonder why a Warrior can (apparently) swing his two-handed sword around all day long, without rest, yet never get tired so long as he never takes any damage.

So perhaps there should be two kinds of Fatigue, both Physical and Mental…?
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

If you play Curse of the Necropus you'll encounter a subtle undercurrent about how the Sorceress' physical fatigue from hiking all day limits the amount of spellcasting she can do for the party. As a result the heroes have to setup and strike camp for her so she can rest.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

The main thing to consider about using IQ for spell fatigue is how it throws off the balance of wizard characters, whose main use for ST is to power spells. (Yes, it helps them survive injuries too, but the best way to survive injuries is to avoid them altogether.)

Particularly if you are doing _Wizard_-like arena duels, or are otherwise interested in the trade-offs of different types of wizard characters, then shifting more functions to IQ tends to make what is already the most important attribute for wizards even more important.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:01 AM   #4
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
…shifting more functions to IQ tends to make what is already the most important attribute for wizards even more important.
Well, yeah… but that's exactly the point. IQ should be more important to the Wizard than ST, because that's the faculty that in all other ways affects spell-casting.

Even when a Warrior loses ST due to wounds, he doesn't lose its use — for example, he he does not suddenly drop his Great Sword when his ST drops below 16. The Warrior can expend physical energy at full capacity, without limit, yet never feel the slightest hint of Fatigue.

But by contrast a Wizard can very easily kill himself (or at least knock himself unconscious and vulnerable to easy murder) in a matter of mere seconds, just by casting his own spells.

So Warriors are relentless, unstoppable killing machines who never need rest, but Wizards are hothouse orchids, who are good for maybe a half a dozen shots before they keel over in a boneless heap…?

That just doesn't seem rational to me.

The Wizard's activity is already much more limited than a Warrior — and the only real difference it would make to count Fatigue against the Wizard's IQ is that he'd be able to cast a few more spells.

The Wizard would still have good reason to invest in improving his ST, because that's still how he avoids DYING — but he'd have a meaningful choice to make, between being high-powered but fragile, or magically weaker but physically sturdier.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Let's take a typical experienced wizard with just her staff:

ST 6 DX 12 IQ 20 Mana 40

After expending a mere baker's dozen of heavy crossbow level missile spells she's already digging into strength.

Which is why she needs a 50 point powerstone in her navel, or at the knobbly end of her staff.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

I'm genuinely not sure whether you're agreeing with me or disagreeing, Henry.

I mean, I do understand that using IQ-based Fatigue would allow the Wizard to cast more (and more powerful) spells.

But if your point is (as I suspect) that it allows them too many more, then I simply disagree.

Perhaps I just have a different mental construct of how Magic ought to work. I feel like Wizards should be rare and really powerful (which is why you only need one or two in a party), but physically weak and vulnerable in melee (which is why you need a party to protect them).

It occurs to me that I may be biased from having (long ago) enjoyed Ars Magica more than any other RPG I can name.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

There are some very useful and game changing spells that: cost less than 6 fatigue, roll vs IQ or are very forgiving of DX roll failures.

To see these in action play Curse of the Necropus.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
Well, yeah… but that's exactly the point. IQ should be more important to the Wizard than ST, because that's the faculty that in all other ways affects spell-casting.
1) IQ is already the most important Wizard attribute, in the most important ways (mainly, it lets you know the best spells, and more of them, and disbelieve, and some other things.

2) Just because it's already most important, is not a reason to make it even more important. Well, maybe it is if you like the idea that wizardry is all mental, but not for balance and variety of character design.

3) DX is also very important for wizards, and some people from time to time suggest also moving spell success rolls to IQ (which in fact is more or less what GURPS Magic does), but again I always urge (not insist - go ahead if you really want to, of course) that people consider the effects on the balance of attributes for wizards.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
Even when a Warrior loses ST due to wounds, he doesn't lose its use — for example, he he does not suddenly drop his Great Sword when his ST drops below 16. The Warrior can expend physical energy at full capacity, without limit, yet never feel the slightest hint of Fatigue.
Well the first part mainly just makes sense (being tired doesn't make people drop their weapons) and the second part is a just a matter of detail level and scale (most combats are over in less than a minute - not enough to exhaust a healthy warrior due to exertion - and TFT players tend to want simple system - GURPS has fatigue rules but they still don't realistically apply to rested fighters in a short combat because there's rarely enough time to exhaust oneself that way).


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
But by contrast a Wizard can very easily kill himself (or at least knock himself unconscious and vulnerable to easy murder) in a matter of mere seconds, just by casting his own spells.

So Warriors are relentless, unstoppable killing machines who never need rest, but Wizards are hothouse orchids, who are good for maybe a half a dozen shots before they keel over in a boneless heap…?

That just doesn't seem rational to me.
I would express "Wizards are hothouse orchids, who are good for maybe a half a dozen shots before they keel over in a boneless heap" more like "Wizards can do many powerful reality-bending and overpowering things that others cannot (many spells can defeat any warrior with one successful casting, or let a group escape an army by blocking a corridor, etc), but there is a heavy cost of doing so in psychic energy, which has to be wisely allocated."

And yes, that is the design of TFT magic. It's been heavily undermined for more experienced wizards by the new staff mana ability, but that takes a lot of experience to build up.

I can understand not being used to that design and/or not liking it and wanting to change it, but that to me is a separate issue from the main one I was trying to draw attention to and get people to consider before thinking shifting spellcasting fatigue to IQ were a good idea, which is more about balance and wizard character design.

If this fragility issue were the main or only concern, I would first suggest considering house rules such as:

A) The very common one where fatigue can cause unconsciousness, but a wizard won't actually die except due to actual damage over ST.

or

B) One might have psychic fatigue not add with damage to result in unconsciousness, but just be a limit on how many spells can be cast. (But one still might not want to base it on IQ, for the reasons of balance and variety I was trying to bring into consideration.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
The Wizard's activity is already much more limited than a Warrior — and the only real difference it would make to count Fatigue against the Wizard's IQ is that he'd be able to cast a few more spells.
I was trying to point out that no, that would not be the only real difference.

As written, even though IQ and DX are much more tempting that ST, there is still a question of how low to go with ST, and a good magical use for wizards with some ST, and a lot of that weight is due to the serious fatigue costs of spells, which creates a nice interesting tension, especially in wizard duels and with not-so-powerful wizard types.

That delicate situation would be smashed by giving mana equal to IQ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
The Wizard would still have good reason to invest in improving his ST, because that's still how he avoids DYING — but he'd have a meaningful choice to make, between being high-powered but fragile, or magically weaker but physically sturdier.
Only marginally. Being able to survive a little more injury is not very competitive with being able to know more spells and more powerful spells (IQ), or with being able to cast spells successfully (DX). Planning to survive by being able to suffer a bit more injury isn't a good wizard strategy. But with ST also determining how many and how powerful spells you can cast and maintain, ST is an important wizard attribute.

And a ST 12 DX 11 IQ 9 or even ST 13 DX 10 IQ 9 wizard with Aid is a complementary asset to a high-IQ wizard. But not if you make IQ the source of mana.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

The current balance favors
ST 6 (+40 mana), DX 12 (+2 DX ring) and IQ 20 (Total of 2300 XP for attributes and 8000 XP for Mana so age is 123 years old to 37 years old.)

$15k in expected gear (one year's savings) gives:
Wizard’s chest $2,500
+2 DX ring $4,000
Stone Flesh ring $4,000
Blur ring $3,000 (Zero ST cost, right?)

c.f. specific mention at ITL 155: "However, some items may require an act of will to operate them – and these will not work, except accidentally, if you don’t know what they are. For instance, a Blur ring would blur anyone who put it on . . . but a Wish ring would
not work until the wearer made a wish, and a lightning-bolt rod would not fire until its holder willed it to fire. No die roll is required to use a magic item, and no ST cost is involved, unless specifically mentioned."
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Last edited by hcobb; 03-25-2019 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:35 PM   #10
Skarg
 
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

The balance of 38-point wizards with $15,000 in magic equipment seems like an entirely different matter (ST fatigue isn't a huge deal if you've got 40 staff mana and magic items), and I imagine there are quite a few other competitive arena builds at that level - want to run some arena battles?
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