Wolverine

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't see how his not being a super is relevant.

as a highly trained normal he should have peak attributes not Superhuman.
I consider 30ish skills to be Super human which is why I feel he should be in the low 20s.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I would say that the best hand to hand combatant in the Marvel Universe is a 30. It is a superhero universe after all.

Yeah, I would peg someone like Gamora around 30. Some levels below that are the likes of Iron Fist, Cap. America, Shang Chi and Daredevil.

Wolverine, in my eyes, is a few tiers below that, mostly because I can't reconcile the wolverine that regularly got his ass kicked by everyone simply because he has a healing factor through the 70s and 80s (and doubly so by sabretooth) with the fanfic version he was later made into in the 90s and 00s (as demonstrated by the wikipedia quote above).

He goes up against Gamora, he should by rights be lucky to get a snappy retort in before its over. Dial up to 9 on the "ninja who knows all teh martial arts everywhere" and he probably wins that one too. Because he is, you know, wolverine.

I may be ranting here. I like wolverine as a character - just think he has been the victim of some exceptionally poor mary sue writing over the years. His basic character concept is a wild brawler - not super-duper ninja martial artist.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Refplace

as a highly trained normal he should have peak attributes not Superhuman.
I consider 30ish skills to be Super human which is why I feel he should be in the low 20s.

That's not how superhero comics actually work. Skill based heros have to have at least as high or higher skills than their superhuman confreres because it's the only thing they've got going for them. Shang-Chi is by editorial fiat, the guy with the highest hand to hand skill on Earth. That means Captain America with his DX of 20 is not better. That means that Spider-Man, despite his DX of 25 is inferior to both of them.

And game mechanically, it makes sense. When you've got a cap on your attributes and no big ticket advantages...what else are you going to spend blow points on except on cranking your speciality skill?

Originally Posted by B9anders

Yeah, I would peg someone like Gamora around 30. Some levels below that are the likes of Iron Fist, Cap. America, Shang Chi and Daredevil.

Wolverine, in my eyes, is a few tiers below that, mostly because I can't reconcile the wolverine that regularly got his ass kicked by everyone simply because he has a healing factor through the 70s and 80s (and doubly so by sabretooth) with the fanfic version he was later made into in the 90s and 00s (as demonstrated by the wikipedia quote above).
artist.

Concedo, I would certainly prefer for Wolverine to not be in contention to be the best martial artist in the world. I still remember how Mariko's dad took him apart with a stick.

[Michael Thayne]

I'd point out that to be the "best," you only need to be one level higher than the next-best. And the guy with Fist!-20 is better than the guy with one or two unarmed combat skills at level 20. First!-30 is absolutely insane. It's not just "better" than Fist!-20. When it comes to making Deceptive Attacks and winning Quick Contests (including Feints), it's as devastating to the Fist!-20 guy as the Fist!-20 guy is to someone with only basic ability in unarmed combat. At the same time, Fist!-30 serves no purpose outside of Deceptive Attacks and winning Quick Contests; it's highly unlikely that you'll ever run into a situation where you're taking -15 to an unarmed attack without piling on a lot of Deceptive Attack. You're probably better off becoming more well-rounded, rather than cranking the Fist! skill up.

It's a mistake to think that high point totals - high skill levels. GURPS rewards hyper-specialization at lower power levels, but rewards well-roundedness beyond that. Skills in the 18-20 range are theoretically possible at very low point totals, and become a reasonable thing to buy once you're in the 100-200 point range (pinnacle of realistic human achievement). Look at the cinematic templates in Action and Dungeon Fantasy, though, and the top skills are still in the 18-20 range. Some templates don't even go that high. And then look at the 400 point templates in Monster Hunters, and the skill ranges are exactly the same as the earlier series'. Monster hunting champions are distinguished by their special abilities or the fact that their skills are Wildcard skills; the skill levels aren't much higher if at all. And of course, IIRC the actual Supers 4e doesn't have a single template with skill above 22, with the 2000-point Archetype's skills mostly around 14-16 (HT and Will-based skills are higher).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

At the same time, Fist!-30 serves no purpose outside of Deceptive Attacks and winning Quick Contests; it's highly unlikely that you'll ever run into a situation where you're taking -15 to an unarmed attack without piling on a lot of Deceptive Attack. You're probably better off becoming more well-rounded, rather than cranking the Fist! skill up.

Hmmm...
3x Rapid Strikes (-9/-9/-9) to Chinks in Vitals Armor (-10) in Total Darkness (-10) for a -29?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Hmmm...
3x Rapid Strikes (-9/-9/-9) to Chinks in Vitals Armor (-10) in Total Darkness (-10) for a -29?

If you really like making lots of attacks per turn and targeting chinks in armor, you can buy them up as techniques. Even Extra Attack (Multi-Strike, +20%) [30] is cheaper than spending 36 points to raise a Wildcard skill 3 levels purely to soak up Rapid Strike penalties. And total darkness is rare, though admittedly with some GMs significant darkness penalties may not be. Even so, there are many better ways of dealing with darkness penalties, some of which even suit a guy who's "merely" supposed to be an insanely skilled martial artist: Blind Fighting, Dark Vision (Hypersensory, +40%), and Vibration Sense (possibly with Sense of Perception, +100%) all do the trick.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'd point out that to be the "best," you only need to be one level higher than the next-best. And the guy with Fist!-20 is better than the guy with one or two unarmed combat skills at level 20. First!-30 is absolutely insane. It's not just "better" than Fist!-20. When it comes to making Deceptive Attacks and winning Quick Contests (including Feints), it's as devastating to the Fist!-20 guy as the Fist!-20 guy is to someone with only basic ability in unarmed combat. At the same time, Fist!-30 serves no purpose outside of Deceptive Attacks and winning Quick Contests; it's highly unlikely that you'll ever run into a situation where you're taking -15 to an unarmed attack without piling on a lot of Deceptive Attack. You're probably better off becoming more well-rounded, rather than cranking the Fist! skill up.

The Fist!-30 guy can pull off a rapid strike feint/lethal strike to the eye (-3/-14) and still hit at skill 16. The Fists!-20 wouldn't want to attempt that.

And yes, fists!-30 is quite insane. Which is why I would peg the best hand to hand combatant in the universe at around those levels.

But the main purpose of skill-30 really is to play into the established convention of tiers of badasses in the superhero genre. Maybe you are better off rounding out - but some still decided to become even more badass with their fighting skill.

Someone like Gamora piles ATR, Extreme Regeneration, Unkillable 2 and good levels of super strength on top of her Ultimate Style!-30. When you are "the deadliest woman in the universe" who usually slugs it out with cosmic types, it doesn't come cheap.

[fifiste]

Originally Posted by fifiste

Can you apply AD on claws like that - shouldn't you apply it to your STR also in this case.

Again with the question - both for strikers and claws - shoudn't you modify your ST also?
Might be better to buy these as innate attacks.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by B9anders

The Fist!-30 guy can pull off a rapid strike feint/lethal strike to the eye (-3/-14) and still hit at skill 16. The Fists!-20 wouldn't want to attempt that.

And yes, fists!-30 is quite insane. Which is why I would peg the best hand to hand combatant in the universe at around those levels.

But the main purpose of skill-30 really is to play into the established convention of tiers of badasses in the superhero genre. Maybe you are better off rounding out - but some still decided to become even more badass with their fighting skill.

Someone like Gamora piles ATR, Extreme Regeneration, Unkillable 2 and good levels of super strength on top of her Ultimate Style!-30. When you are "the deadliest woman in the universe" who usually slugs it out with cosmic types, it doesn't come cheap.

I dont see Wolverine as pulling tricky stunts, targeted attacks on most foes (giant sentinals are an exception) or Deceptive Attacks.
I see him as mowing through the opposition by relying on his claws and a good parry skill.
Forgot about gamora, ok her I can see 30 so she can deptively hit faster foes and arm lock cosmic powered strong ones.

[Phantasm]

Here's what I see the basics of Wolvie's character as, sans point values:

ST 20
DX 14
IQ 11
HT 18

HP 30-40
Will 14
Per 14
FP 18+

Languages: English, French, Japanese, Russian
Cultures: Western, East Asian

Advantages:
Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense)
DR 2-10 (Crushing Only; Tough Skin)
Claws (Talons) (Armor Divisor (10 to Infinite))
Modified ST-Based Damage (Armor Divisor (10 to Infinite))
Injury Tolerance (Unbreakable Bones; Damage Reduction /10 to /100)
Regeneration (Fast to Extreme)
Resistance to Metabolic Hazards (with his HT, a +3 could work, but I can see +8 as well; fan-boys will claim Immunity)
Extra Attack 1

Perks:
Alcohol Tolerance
Courtesy (Canadian) Military Rank 4 (Captain or Major, IIRC)

Disadvantages:
Amnesia (Total, prior to being "found" by Mac and Heather Hudson)
Code of Honor (Personal or Bushido)
Sense of Duty (Comrades)
Addiction (Tobacco)
Alcoholism (possibly quirk level)
Bad Temper, Berserk, and/or Stress Atavism (Severe) (whichever fits his berserker rages best)
Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents)

Quirks:
Teenage Female Sidekick (Shadowcat, Rogue, Jubilee, Pixie, Armor, Hope....)
Unrequited Love (Jean Grey)

Skills:
Games (Poker) - 12
Acting-12
Brawling-20
Tracking-14+
Survival (Woodlands, Mountain)-14+
Wrestling-14
Detect Lies-14+
Stealth-12 (not the best - Nightcrawler in particular is better - but not shabby in it)
May or may not still have points in Soldier

Techniques:
Headbutt


YMMV