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Old 11-13-2018, 01:14 PM   #11
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

The reason why the Skull is -7 from the front and -5 from the back in Martial Arts (and vice versa for the Face) is that from the front, the skull is behind the Face - GURPS doesn't really allow for blowing through the Face into the brain, so from the front you have to target the forehead above the brows, or opportunity shots as the targets head moves, if you want to hit the brain. Or the eye, of course.

Whereas from behind, the entire back of the head is the Skull hit location, and the Face is largely hidden behind the skull (the jaw and ears are considered part of the Face) so again, you can't blow through the Skull to hit the face, and therefore it effectively has cover.

Of course in both cases characters don't stand stock still with their heads held up exactly straight facing dead forwards, unflinching. So in both cases there's opportunity shots at the sides of the face and cranium even from "bad angles", but considering the timing problems that easily also accounts for the -2 difference IMO.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
A question about your example, though, of the SM -5 skull-shaped robot vs the game's canonical -7 TH skull location. You call that a mismatch, but I wonder whether you're taking the RAW skull hit location to mean the actual entire skull. Because my understanding is that the game's skull location by design, and setting strange terminology aside isn't actually the skull, but rather what should be called the skullcap. Just the brain area, that is which could be considered about half the size of the whole skull, and thus -7 instead of -5 TH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull "The skull is composed of two parts: the cranium and the mandible. In the human these two parts are the neurocranium and the viscerocranium or facial skeleton that includes the mandible as its largest bone."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skullcap#Other_uses liks to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvaria_(skull) described as "the upper part of the neurocranium".

You have a major point here, since "skull" in regular terminology includes mandible (ie the lower jaw bone, I think corresponding to the new hit location in martial arts) and this -6 location isn't treated as a sublocation of the -7 location, a term like "cranium" would be more specific.

"Neurocranium" (also termed "braincase" and "brainpain") seems even more specific, because it refers to the braincase. The term viscerocranium actually appears to refer to the face.

The calvaria/skullcap is only part of the "skull roof" so that's probably too specific. It'd probably be something like "skull only, top only" DR, whereas neurocranium and I think the intent of the -7 hit locatio you can target from front/sides (or from back at -5) is I think supposed to be DR composing an entire surrounding structure from all directions.

Since the neurocranium is composed of multiple bones and fractures could occur on specific sides of it, I guess you could come up with some kind of sub-locations where each direction has its own semi-ablative DR, as 10 crushing seems enough to fracture a skull: the 8 damage penetrating 2 DR is multiplied by 4 and -32 is enough to send a human with 10 HP to negative 22, forcing 2 death checks)
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
That question has already been discussed a lot in the past and the main answer is: because hit location penalties are not given for an unmoving target but for a man, in front of you, during combat - which means moving and maintaining a guard

So, in other situations, they have to be modified a bit.
In my defense I did google search the forums before I posted.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

You don't have to defend yourself. Those old thread are not always easy to find and there was no reproach intention in my post. Sorry if I implied it.
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Old 12-01-2018, 04:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The big reason for the mismatch is because the hit location modifiers predate the SSR and include implicit modifiers for how easy they are to protect. As another historical oddity, the torso is +0 to be hit, and really should be no better than -1.
I have house ruled this. The torso is -1. If you want to attack at 0 penalty you must roll on the random hit location table, the justification being that "you were declaring an intent to attack at whatever opening presented itself."

I think that this is a common house rule.
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
I have house ruled this. The torso is -1. If you want to attack at 0 penalty you must roll on the random hit location table, the justification being that "you were declaring an intent to attack at whatever opening presented itself."
That's a potent house rule and as a Player I'd happily roll on the random hit location chart almost every single time.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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I think that this is a common house rule.
It's a house rule I've encountered before, so it's not super rare, but not sure it counts as 'common'.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
That's a potent house rule and as a Player I'd happily roll on the random hit location chart almost every single time.
I've been thinking about applying the same -1 to torso hits in my own games and I've seen a bunch of situations where a random hit location isn't the right choice. For context the game I run is TL2/3, ~120 points, and is almost entirely filled with humans or human analogs with squishy vital bits.
  1. Spears and thrusting swords are popular weapons. Random thrusts to the arms, legs, or feet are less effective.
  2. Arrow fire is likewise popular. An Arrow to a limb is much less effective than a torso hit.
  3. In an ongoing fight a random hit to an arm that's already crippled doesn't help win the fight. The same goes for a leg shot on an opponent that has already fallen over. The torso is guaranteed useful damage.
  4. A penalty to the torso makes other hit locations more appealing to target on purpose. I find gurps combat doesn't match the number of hits to arms, hands, etc. that HEMA fights produce.
  5. Very large, powerful weapons like a halberd will blow through a hand with plenty of damage left over. A hit to the torso ensures all of the damage goes through to the target.

With all that in mind I think I would see archers continue aiming for the torso unless they desperately needed the extra +1 to hit at range. In melee combat those with cutting weapons would likely open up with random hits to see what they could disable and switch to more carefully aimed attacks later in the fight. I think I would like the randomness that introduces to peoples injury in a fight.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
I have house ruled this. The torso is -1. If you want to attack at 0 penalty you must roll on the random hit location table, the justification being that "you were declaring an intent to attack at whatever opening presented itself."

I think that this is a common house rule.
With torso broken into chest/abdomen and abdomen broken into groin/pelvis would you substitute -1 for chest, -2 for abdomen?

DR for collective chest/abdomen might need repricing if done based on those penalties, could use similar rules for collective face+skull DR too.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: Vitals shots vs. Size&Speed/Range table

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
I have house ruled this. The torso is -1. If you want to attack at 0 penalty you must roll on the random hit location table, the justification being that "you were declaring an intent to attack at whatever opening presented itself."

I think that this is a common house rule.
Yes, this doesn't break anything really.

I think the default rule is a better default rule, since it treats the target as a bundle of hit points with limited special rules, which is a better for new folks and other peeps who want a simpler combat game.
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