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Old 02-19-2023, 03:08 AM   #41
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

the game is designed for 24 point characters, but it seems that armor only applies properly from 30 points, which doesn't seem right to me.
I think I'm going to change the rules of the game :)
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Old 02-19-2023, 06:26 AM   #42
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by Kolk View Post
the game is designed for 24 point characters, but it seems that armor only applies properly from 30 points, which doesn't seem right to me.
I think I'm going to change the rules of the game :)
These parts of TFT go back to the 1970s. Characters then routinely started at 32 points. Armor works as well today as it did then as a reasonable abstraction whether using 24-point Melee characters, 32-point Wizard characters, or more advanced ones.
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Old 02-19-2023, 09:12 AM   #43
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolk View Post
and finally a lot of DEF

10000 Guard(ST11,DX9,DEF5)(Shortsword Chainmail Large Shield):
10000 TribemanA(ST11,DX13,DEF0)(Shortsword):


Well, the research continues
Hi Kolk,

I don't want to rain on your parade, but there have been several more or less complete Monte Carlo simulations done with hundreds of fights between hundreds of different starting, 36-pint characters, 40-point characters, etc. My own simulation even added some dragons into the mix just for fun.

The goal was to find dominating builds or imbalances when Legacy Edition was first discussed. We tried a few different rule suggestions as well, for charge damage and so on.

Overall, in these one-on-one duels, where every build met every other build hundreds of times, the result was that it was surprisingly well balanced.

A few rules of thumb that we found were:
Having 1 more adjDX than your opponent trumped most gear choices.
Low ST weapons could only compete if they were of fine quality and with fine quality weapons they were a little too strong (mostly based around the starting money of 1000$)
Some battles could take a very long time, 50+ turns.
The average battle length was much shorter (3-5 turns).
Heavy weapons won against heavily armored opponents. No surprise.
Low ST fighters did well against unarmored opponents. No surprise.
Overall the classic builds around 12/12, 13/11, and 11/13 did very well.
As long as your adjDX is between 8 and 14 you will be competitive, at least against some types of enemies.
36 pointers and higher could "afford" more armor since their attributes are higher.
UC 3 is somewhat competitive (needs to get into HtH to shine).
Expertise and Mastery are balanced and shrewd attacks shouldn't be used if your adjDX becomes too low, unless the opponent have lots of armor to overcome.

The winning concept for a duel is to learn your opponent's adjDX and adjust your own armor so you have one higher than him.

Conclusion: Armor is mostly a consideration outside the arena, unless your adjDX is 13+ then you will most likely do better with some armor in the arena as well. Otherwise, armor or not matters little. It is balanced.

Side note:
I think the DX penalty for armor is a game balance thing, but also a generic penalty for walking around in armor, being somewhat encumbered all the time, etc. Realistically it probably should be a penalty on fatigue, but since that isn't used in combat much, it wouldn't be a real limitation, and it would also mean that people in plate would get knocked out much faster if they started with half ST due to fatigue.

DX penalties, are they realistic, probably not, but it is simple and it works. And it allows barbarians, monks, and swashbucklers to compete with knights.
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Old 02-25-2023, 05:37 AM   #44
Kolk
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Thanks Nils for sharing your results. to be honest, I didn't know about the change from 24 to 32, but it's actually 24+8IQ.
I came back to the game after many years, I'm not a fan of magic, and skills are new to me. Actually, role playing is not my favorite type of game either.
I used to use TFT for battles and actually after years I'm looking to develop my old play.
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Old 02-25-2023, 08:54 AM   #45
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolk View Post
I came back to the game after many years, I'm not a fan of magic, and skills are new to me. Actually, role playing is not my favorite type of game either.
If you're only playing Melee, you don't need to worry about spells or skills at all. Using the full RPG version of TFT (with the 'advanced' rules found in ITL) is where Nils' findings are most relevant.
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Old 04-02-2023, 11:28 AM   #46
JustAnotherJarhead
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

battle simulations are great, but in play with an adventuring party of diverse characters, those with "some" armor tend to live longer. Eventually that critical blow lands for us all, and not being able to absorb a couple hits can mean death, vs: hanging on to an unconscious character to live to fight another day. Also when unarmored you are always watching for that -2DX penalty for taking a hard hit, that can really shift the averages in a battle, it matters not how much your Halberd strike or Shrewd blow delivers if you just miss with it.
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Old 04-02-2023, 12:09 PM   #47
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

From the perspective of abstract balance, armor's penalties work well in Melee to provide interesting trade-offs, and to prevent some choice from being always better than others in all ways. If you remove or reduce those penalties, you'll tend to reduce those benefits too.

That being said, when figures have enough DX, they can much better "afford" to wear armor, than when they don't. Having total adjDX 11+ means you still hit most of the time, and having adjDX 9 or less means you miss most of the time, which means you're mostly not contributing a lot to your side winning, except possibly by wasting some foes' time or something. So yes, overall, for starting-level characters, most of them probably should think twice about wearing armor that reduces their DX much below 10.

So, overall, for higher-level characters, armor tends to get more and more practical, the more DX they have.

If you're playing large battles, the MA penalties can also be significant, particularly if less-armored forces are able to avoid engaging slower more heavily-armored forces in an advantageous way.

From a perspective of having the game work more like its subject, though, the DX penalties might seem a bit much. You might look at what other appropriate considerations can make who has what armor an interesting thing (depending on what your interests are). For example, armor might be a limited resource. Sure it's always good to have armor, but who does have armor, and why? If you're doing a historical simulation, the choice might be dictated by history. If it's some sort of resource point-buy, armoring your troops might count against some sort of resource and/or "points". Etc.
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