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Old 03-11-2021, 09:56 AM   #1
RedMattis
 
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Default Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

I personally like the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling a bit more for its simplicity, but there are some points which I'm wondering are because of space requirements/simplicity or balance.

Constriction Attack inflicts double CP in Technical Grappling. This seems gone in Fantastic Grappling.

The Binding advantage is also not mentioned. Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it? Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing? Same with Binding having DR/Control Resistance equal to level/3.

I don't see any mention of how much CR inflicted by grappling with weapons either, or the max CR. Technical Grappling had a bunch of rules about leverage?

Anything else which didn't really get transferred?
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Old 03-11-2021, 11:10 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
I personally like the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling a bit more for its simplicity, but there are some points which I'm wondering are because of space requirements/simplicity or balance.
Simplicity and conformity with the rules and assumptions for a product that supports the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. "Balance" is tricky no matter what.

We tried to distill it down to its essence, remove the special-case rules that made it more complex than needed.

Quote:
Constriction Attack inflicts double CP in Technical Grappling. This seems gone in Fantastic Grappling.
If one hearkens back to the Basic Set, Constriction Attack is just "you can roll a QC and damage your opponent each turn after a grapple."

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK." It's simpler, requires no special cases, and closer to both the Basic Set and the (more pertinent) rules for Suffocation on Exploits p. 70.

one of the reasons for the extra CP in the original TG was the requirement to (almost) always spend CP for damage. You'll notice that's not always enforced in FDG, though it's always optional. While it worked as a mechanic, narratively it was always jarring.

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The Binding advantage is also not mentioned.
Not precisely true. It is mentioned on p. 8 in "It's a Trap!"

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Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it?
The strength of a binding is set by the power/ability design. Much like any other grappling attack, it has a maximum grapple power equal to 2x it's Control Maximum. For a spell or power that just grabs you and never rolls to defend itself, I'd just let CP accumulate to that maximum value and then that's it.

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Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing?
I don't think so. If you wanted to make an engulfing attack harder to break out of, assign Control Resistance as recommended in "It's a Trap!"

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I don't see any mention of how much CR inflicted by grappling with weapons either, or the max CR. Technical Grappling had a bunch of rules about leverage?
Technical Grappling more or less tried to provide special consideration for everything, because I was a novice writer. "A bunch of rules..." for everything is less helpful than good guidance and fewer special cases...or that's what years of playing with the rules in actual games taught me.

Control Resistance is not a feature of most weapons. Special items like handcuffs, sure (see It's a Trap again). The maximum CR will depend on the device. Cuffs sufficient to entrap a ST 50 giant will probably have CR of 25 or even more.

Grappling with weapons is now a bit of a switch. Some weapons (most weapons, since you can "grapple" with a sword or shield using the Weapon/Shield Bind concept, it's just your foe can escape from that kind of grapple simply by backing up) enable you to grapple with them, from a distance. CP rolled is set by your thrust damage, and Judo or Melee Weapon gives boosts for skill. It would be entirely plausible for a GM to say "Hmm...a garotte is a purpose-built grappling weapon, so we're going to base it on the Wrestling progression instead of Judo."

Returning to the beginning: Keeping it simple was the goal. The Chaotic GM has a great piece on how you can do just about every Technique in TG with FDG for those who want more detail.
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Old 03-11-2021, 11:58 AM   #3
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK." It's simpler, requires no special cases, and closer to both the Basic Set and the (more pertinent) rules for Suffocation on Exploits p. 70.
This makes the Constriction advantage rather underwhelming though? You're paying a lot of points for the ability to choke a fairly limited group of targets without targeting the neck.

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<weapons>
So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?
You roll thrust appropriate for your ST + Lifting ST based on the Judo or Melee Weapon progression as per page 3 of FDG. The non-control damage of weapons is not used for anything.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

I've used both in campaigns and I think it was in my AEON supers game where we (Doug and I) started stripping down TG to be simpler for the other players. I know we were using some ideas Peter Dell'Orto had and eventually Doug wrote up Dungeon Grappling. FDG didn't come around until the next campaign where we used it instead of the base rules from then on.

I've probably used it more than any GM that isn't Doug at this point as I've run hundreds of sessions and it was adopted for use before it was released to the public. It's a good system and it mirrors how grappling really works (and you don't have to worry about things like "Grip ST") and it's simple. You don't always get those two in the same package, much less well-built to boot.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
This makes the Constriction advantage rather underwhelming though? You're paying a lot of points for the ability to choke a fairly limited group of targets without targeting the neck.
In the DFRPG, Constriction Attack (Monsters, p. 10) effects coincide almost entirely with the Strangle reference from FDG. If there's a problem with cost, that's a bit tangential for this game as it's a Monster trait not found in the Adventurers book.


Quote:
So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?
As Exxar said: Neither one. You roll thrust based on your (Lifting) ST, modified for skill as per Melee Weapon.
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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In the DFRPG, Constriction Attack (Monsters, p. 10) effects coincide almost entirely with the Strangle reference from FDG. If there's a problem with cost, that's a bit tangential for this game as it's a Monster trait not found in the Adventurers book.
Don't have the DFRPG main books, only the GURPS ones. I mostly bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling book because it was a simplified version of the Technical Grappling one.

Anyway, does strangling take an action, or it is a free action anyone can do it when they grapple the right location? It is a bit unclear to me based on what FDG says.
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Don't have the DFRPG main books, only the GURPS ones. I mostly bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling book because it was a simplified version of the Technical Grappling one.
Sensible! But the book is written in the context of larger-than-life fantasy exploits based on a specific ruleset, in this case the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

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Anyway, does strangling take an action, or it is a free action anyone can do it when they grapple the right location? It is a bit unclear to me based on what FDG says.
It's an attack that takes your entire turn, definitely not a free action. I'd rule you can't do it twice (Rapid Strike to strangle twice, for example).
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Old 03-12-2021, 08:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If one hearkens back to the Basic Set, Constriction Attack is just "you can roll a QC and damage your opponent each turn after a grapple."

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK."
I figured part of why you gave that double-CP benefit to Constriction Attack was that Martial Arts kinda gave partial Constriction Attack privileges to muggles on MA117 under Bear Hugs. Instead of "strangles vs torsos, period" it's just "your torso strangles that anyone can try now work against your own SM instead of just lesser SM... and there's no -5 penalty like doing a one-handed strangle even when you're required to use two arms or two legs.

but I guess MA116 offset that by giving it some new boosts like unpenalized hands-free grappling techniques using torso, which Basic Set didn't exactly say... though MA did also require Double-Jointed for that, which boosts DJ and CA both in a way.
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Old 03-15-2021, 02:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling

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I could see treating a Constriction Attack as two limbs even. Especially if you're coming from the GURPS angle where Constriction Attack loses some of its worth because anyone can spend CP for damage and Constriction Attack only lets you strangle without grabbing the neck.
Makes sense. I'll probably run for that for Nagas/Lamia.

I'm tempted to do something similar for an arachne/drider-like character, letting them buy a technique to use legs for grappling/assisting with grappling. Perhaps a Technique defaulting to <unarmed skill>-3 or something.

Technical Grappling had rules for leg-grappling, but Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is lacking something like that. I'd really like to see a bit of a comfortable in-between of the over-complicated Technical Grappling, and the rather bare-bones Dungeon Grappling.

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I think I'd really lean into KYOS' "twice as strong" comparisons, so a grab and go would let you move for your full move if your ST were by 3 or more greater, half move for 0-2, and a step if your victim had up to 3 more ST than you.
The question is what to do about using Lifting ST for normal contests. Since Lifting ST is now highly exponential it gets... weird.

I'm currently trying to decide between using Striking-ST for grappling instead (I already price it at 2/points level instead of 1/point level), or counting Lifting ST as `Lifting-ST*2 - 10`.

Both have pros and cons. Striking ST is simple, and makes the scaling less weird. It also makes it easier to make a KYOS Lifting-ST 25 creature wrestle believably by simply giving it a lot more Striking-ST than Lifting-ST. Could probably do Striking-ST (Wrestling only, -30%) or something too.

Lifting-ST keeps the idea of wrestling being more based around your "slow" strength though, while using Striking-ST essentially creatings 'Lifting-ST', 'Striking-ST', and 'Wrestling-ST' :\

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I figured part of why you gave that double-CP benefit to Constriction Attack was that Martial Arts kinda gave partial Constriction Attack privileges to muggles on MA117 under Bear Hugs. Instead of "strangles vs torsos, period" it's just "your torso strangles that anyone can try now work against your own SM instead of just lesser SM... and there's no -5 penalty like doing a one-handed strangle even when you're required to use two arms or two legs.
I'm not a wrestler/grapple myself, but isn't a choke-hold supposed to be rather difficult to do unless you're behind the person too, most techniques I've seen involve locking your arms around their neck from the back.

I don't mind Cinematic Martial artists (or Infinite's vampire who has super-strength) one-hand choking out someone, but they should probably pay for some sort of technique. Or at least require something like the Trained by Master advantage.

As it is there isn't really a reason to pick up stuff like the Constriction Attack. I mean, compared to just getting 4 levels of Wrestling it is a really really weak pick.
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