Help a noobie understand critical hits

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

How would characters kill monsters or AFVs with nerfed guns?

By giving the monsters and AFVs appropriate stats?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

But if they're coming at things from the perspective of movies (where a gun in the hands of a protagonist is an Instant Death Wand)

I think you mean "invitation to be disarmed". Unless it's a John Wick film, guns are for taking out extras.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

What's 4 x 5d6 x 2? (The 5.56 rifles have a recoil of 2 as well!) Oh look the PC took 155 damage to the head! game over.

Could you elucidate what you think should happen instead when a character takes four assault rifle bullets to the head?

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

But you're right, taking an impossible shot and hitting because you rolled a natural 3 or 4 is by the book.

Unless I misrember, if an action is GURPS-impossible, they are not allowed a roll.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I think you mean "invitation to be disarmed". Unless it's a John Wick film, guns are for taking out extras.

Or a whole lot of films from before hand-to-hand choreography became obligatory. Which I want to attribute to The Matrix, though that could be wrong.

Also, I don't understand what's wrong with taking out extras.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

feats/ advantages same thing. And y'know, *taps title of thread*

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem. "no no that dice roll didn't count." That's not a solution to the problem, it's papering over it. Allowing the players to do that by spending points or the GM just rolling his dice twice because he's unwilling to let his players get insta killed, it's the same thing.

I'm not even saying I don't want luck in the game. I'm saying THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A GAME THAT REQUIRES DICE ROLL FUDGING.

If you're looking for alternatives to Luck ("dice roll fudging") that would have saved the life of your test character, I'll call out four:

1.) Having 20ish HP (so it takes 120 points of damage to kill you) and good HT or Hard To Kill means that even a rifle shot to the head probably won't kill you. Say you've got a middle-of-the-road DR 5 helmet. That plus skull DR 2 will reduce a typical 7d headshot (24 damage) to only 68 injury (17 x 4). You'll be at -48 HP and will have to pass two death checks, but you probably won't die. 20 HP means you're beefier than Arnold Schwarzenegger but for a cyberpunk game it's pretty reasonable, and of course a tanky cyberdude or vampire can have much more than a basic DR 5 helmet.

2.) Unkillable 2 seems thematic for vampires, which means no amount of damage will kill you.

3.) If you allow magic, spells like Deflect Missiles can make you temporarily immune to missiles, or Invisibility can make you approximately impossible to hit with a headshot. (See below.)

4.) Finally, there's tactics. If Farmer Joe is shooting at you with Guns-11, and he's shooting at the head, then he needs a 4 or better to hit. If he takes even a -2 penalty, his target number will drop so low that even a 3 doesn't hit, which means that even if he rolls a 3 it's not a crit, it's a failure. So if Farmer Joe is at least 5 yards away from the character, that's a -2 penalty so the PC doesn't die. Or if it's twilight (-2 or -3 to vision and attacks) or moonlight (-4 to -6) or moonless night (-7), the PC doesn't die. Or if the PC is a very tiny creature like a pixie (SM -6, six inches to a foot tall IIRC), attackers always have -6 to hit and the PC doesn't die. If you're invisible due to powers, technology, or magic, that's -6 to hit and the PC doesn't die.

If Farmer Joe's skill is higher than Guns-11 you may need to stack more multipliers, but the point here is that you really did get very unlucky with rolling a 3 and might also have made a rules mistake in e.g. not applying ranged penalties and darkness penalties. (Or maybe this practice fight took place in broad daylight and the shooter aimed long enough to get an Accuracy bonus big enough to cancel out any ranged penalties--I wasn't there, so you tell me.) Darkness is pretty thematic for vampires anyway and if your players fight like Batman, in the dark most of the time and often using surprise, that doesn't seem like a bad thing unless you really do insist on zero PC deaths instead of 0.00001%.

People recommend Luck not because it's mandatory (it's not) but because it's cheap and pretty good and good for almost any character concept. But the game doesn't break if the GM bans Luck.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

The interesting thing is how people here say "the other game" like saying "he who must not be named" or "you know who" like it's voldemort or something.

Guys... the reason why I went to gurps is the core structure of the game allows me to build the unvierse I want. Sneering at the other game because "well it's not like our game, it's not "realistic"" is just... silly. If you want total realism that's great! But a universal role playing system shouldn't demand that I play hyper realism with the rest of you. It's astounding to me how the folks replying are absolutely against the idea of just softening things up, increasing the margin of error by stepping back from "realism" for fun. It's pretty silly to be so obsessed with realism when I'm talking about magic and vampires in the first place...

For the record, I don't think I'm doing this, and if you want to decrease the damage of guns that seems okay to me although you should make sure your players don't mind if they need to shoot regular mooks a lot of times before they fall down. I'm just trying to make sure you are aware of the various magic and/or vampire options your players have for staying alive and unwounded even if they are getting shot at with rifles doing 7d of damage or more, which you'll probably have somewhere in the game even if you do reduce the damage of most guns. Like, you're still going to have sniper rifles and anti-tank missiles and tanks somewhere, right?

P.S. I agree that it's weird when people refuse to use the words "Dungeons and Dragons", although who knows? They might be talking about Classic Traveller or Bunnies and Burrows instead. :-P

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Or a whole lot of films from before hand-to-hand choreography became obligatory. Which I want to attribute to The Matrix, though that could be wrong.

The Matrix cemented the use of wire-fu for western cinema fight choreography, but there's a reason the scene in Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark where he shoots the sword-wielding enemy (after punching and whipping his way through a half dozen other foes) was so memorable: it's because it defied the conventions (and was originally planned as a much longer sword vs whip fight).

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Also, I don't understand what's wrong with taking out extras.

Nothing, but guns don't need high damage for that.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by RyanW

The highest damage roll I ever achieved on a character sheet I still have is Bryce's 2d+1 quarterstaff, though I can remember an axe-and-shield fighter that I'm almost certain was higher

I really feel sorry for some of you that have never played in a game where you were allowed to gonzo in some way.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

We were playing online and had flexible die rollers so she actually could roll 84 dice instead of doing 6dx14 like you would on a tabletop.

I really feel sorry for some of you that can't just roll 84 dice. Or my wallet that I've purchased more than 84 d6s...


Highest consistent non-magic based damage I've seen in a fantasy game was the Ogre Wrestler who had 3d+3 punches, 5d+9 mace swings, and did 12d+33 vs a door once (Power Blow does amazing things). I'm not even going to discuss highest damage in a non-fantasy game, as we're talking munitions and supers, and that gets ugly fast.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem.

It isn't broken, it's just not doing what you want.

You've got a fix. Why are you still arguing with people trying to convince you not use your fix?

So my players get bored as they don't feel any threat or challenge because if the enemy fights back and has anything other than the crappiest weapon they CAN potentially get that hit...

But that's what's going to happen when you nerf all the weapons.

I mean unless all the PCs ever face are firearms in the campaign where swords and axes are king. Which if that's what you want, the PCs going for high ST and carry ancient weapons... well then, go for it!

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

-5 doesn't hit skull. If that was the shot they took, it should have been a face hit, doing only normal damage. Good chance of knockdown and stunning, negligible lethality.

But you're right, taking an impossible shot and hitting because you rolled a natural 3 or 4 is by the book.

On the contrary, the book says you cannot succeed unless your skill is at least 3.

Basic Set, Campaigns pg 345: You may not attempt a success roll if your effective skill is less than 3, unless you are attempting a defense roll (p. 374).

Attack rolls are a form of success roll, so this applies. It's too bad it's not re-stated on page 381 though.

Therefore these mooks, who had skill 10 and a total of -10 to hit, could not have hit the PC's head even on a 3.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Varyon

There exist a large number of ways to tone down firearms if realistic deadliness doesn't fit your campaign, as has been noted. And yes, your idea if nerfing all guns is indeed an option, it's just that most players are going to be rather disappointed when they make a gun-toting PC and the GM arms them with a pea-shooter. As I stated earlier, if your players are fine with 1d pistols and 2d(2) rifles, go for it. Of course, when one of your PC's takes a maximum-damage rifle shot to the Skull and dies instantly from the resulting 44 HP Injury (which calls for 3 death checks for anyone with HP 11 or lower, 2 for anyone with HP 14 or lower, and one for anyone with HP 22 or lower), you'll still be in the same boat....

That is highly unlikely. That being said, when I design superheroes I design them with Luck, HT 15+, hard to kill or unkillable.