Takedown Rifles (1990s)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Assuming it was stored all together and ready to go, a about the same as an AR/M16, perhaps a little longer (especially if the scope if detached). I'd say 10 seconds, easy, for someone with a bit of practice and the parts all to hand. If they're jumbled in the bottom of a toolbox or the like, and the user hasn't handled that model of rifle for a while, it'll be longer (I'd go with 30 seconds, with generous reductions for a good skill roll).

That sounds good enough.

Originally Posted by Rupert

OR any full-bore round, really. For long range precision shooting rate of fire isn't as important, and any good bolt action sporter should do, though you'd need about a 4-foot long hidey hole for that. That also opens up a wide range of different bullets and loadings for different ranges and target if the characters (or players) care about such things.

A four-foot long hidey holey is what I'm trying to avoid, hence trying to get takedown precision rifles.

The storage spaces on fishing boats are often 16" to 21" in their longest dimension. It's possible to buy custom storage spaces that are larger, but the more you scale it up, the less it looks like the typical storage for tackle boxes and other fishing stuff that all boats have.

This is why rifles that can be stowed with no piece longer than that are so useful.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The most minimal gun smithing needed to pull this trick is with the licensed copy Mauser action from a 1903 Springfield. Already in 30-06. From my reading Springfield actions were being "civillianized"{ as early as the 1920s. Most often this just meant puttng a new civiliani-style stock on it.

I think that obtaining a Springfield 1903 action in the late 80s or early 90s in the United States might be more expensive than a Mauser action, like the one from the Czech vz. 24 rifle. Especially as massive stockpiles of WWII surplus became available with the fall of the Soviet Union.

I'm considering whether 7x57mm Mauser ammunition might be common enough. That would be a nice caliber for the work.

[Willy]

As for hiding your rifle barrel, yes sto away space is often a problem if you need a long barrel - until you get creative! A boat especially a sailing ship has many long hollow spaces and tubes longer and with a greater diameter than a barrel. For example the ships railing, mast and so on, not to mention that every person with either money or being a skilled handyman can build hidden custom space for everything you want, especially if wood is the material.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Willy

As for hiding your rifle barrel, yes sto away space is often a problem if you need a long barrel - until you get creative! A boat especially a sailing ship has many long hollow spaces and tubes longer and with a greater diameter than a barrel. For example the ships railing, mast and so on, not to mention that every person with either money or being a skilled handyman can build hidden custom space for everything you want, especially if wood is the material.

We want rifles that can be concealed on any fishing boat and in the normal luggage of tourists. As the rifles would be retrieved from the cache by covert operatives in a non-permissive environment years or even decades later, there is no guarantee that they'll have access to a custom-modified boat or other vehicle. They might rent or steal a boat and need to have weapons ready for quick deployment from the deck.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Icelander

We want rifles that can be concealed on any fishing boat and in the normal luggage of tourists. As the rifles would be retrieved from the cache by covert operatives in a non-permissive environment years or even decades later, there is no guarantee that they'll have access to a custom-modified boat or other vehicle. They might rent or steal a boat and need to have weapons ready for quick deployment from the deck.

Ok that is another kind of problem. In the ealier times there were screw guns, litereally canomns mostly developed for use in the mountains, which had barrels! that were screwed together to make it easier to transport them on horseback. At least one modell was in serial production. That may be a possibility which would will exchange accuracy with range. Depending how precise you can make the thread.
There are actually no out of the box weapons of that kind.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Willy

There are actually no out of the box weapons of that kind.

I think it is a fair generalization that when people are writing firearms legislation, they usually see that compact, high-capacity, repeating firearms are especially useful for criminals and write clauses to limit their availability. And if a design does not have a military/police market, and is hard to sell to civilians, its hard to justify the cost of developing it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I
I'm considering whether 7x57mm Mauser ammunition might be common enough. That would be a nice caliber for the work.

I have never heard of that being used under that name in the US. Of course, we don't use the European nomenclature here and especially didn't in the 80s-90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7%C3%9757mm_Mauser

.....has the common US designation being "7mm Mauser" and it appears to have primarily been used before WWII. Even the wildcats it fathered in that time period are no longer truly common.

Unless you're going to plant a couple of crates of century old military ammo somewhere I'd say availability in the US and surrounds will be near zero.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Unless you're going to plant a couple of crates of century old military ammo somewhere I'd say availability in the US and surrounds will be near zero.

My recollection from gun literature of the time was that it wasn't non-existent, but is was definitely an 'uncommon' sporting round at the time. 7mm Remington Express and .270 Winchester were far more common rounds of about that calibre, and .30-30, .30-06, and increasingly .308 more than anything else by a big, big margin.

While 7x57mm Mauser was a popular military round in a lot of the world before WWII, it was never adopted by a major military power, so it didn't see the absolutely massive production and distribution that 7.92x57mm, .303, 7.62x54mmR, or .30-06 did, especially distribution into the US civilian market immediately post-WWII when a huge number of bolt-action battle rifles became surplus.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I think it is a fair generalization that when people are writing firearms legislation, they usually see that compact, high-capacity, repeating firearms are especially useful for criminals and write clauses to limit their availability. And if a design does not have a military/police market, and is hard to sell to civilians, its hard to justify the cost of developing it.

I just played a tactic game last night, in that game several russian guns appear, including some of the Vintorrez family. The Sniper Rifle itself can be broken down and fits in every diplomatic attache case, same goes for a SMG and a Assault Rifle ( able to clamp a grenade launcher under barrel ), all use the same calibre ammo, build especially for being subsonic and armor penetration. While it´s not really long range capability it´s a nice start. Also some SMGs are build for concealment and are so tiny that they even fit under a normal jacket without raising suspicion like some UZI variants and the MP5K. The UZI itself was earlier delivered in germany to civilians!, pre several law changes of course, it was just forbidden to assemble the parts together;) the whole kit was small and compact enough to be hidden nearly everywhere.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I have never heard of that being used under that name in the US. Of course, we don't use the European nomenclature here and especially didn't in the 80s-90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7%C3%9757mm_Mauser

.....has the common US designation being "7mm Mauser" and it appears to have primarily been used before WWII. Even the wildcats it fathered in that time period are no longer truly common.

Unless you're going to plant a couple of crates of century old military ammo somewhere I'd say availability in the US and surrounds will be near zero.

Originally Posted by Rupert

My recollection from gun literature of the time was that it wasn't non-existent, but is was definitely an 'uncommon' sporting round at the time. 7mm Remington Express and .270 Winchester were far more common rounds of about that calibre, and .30-30, .30-06, and increasingly .308 more than anything else by a big, big margin.

While 7x57mm Mauser was a popular military round in a lot of the world before WWII, it was never adopted by a major military power, so it didn't see the absolutely massive production and distribution that 7.92x57mm, .303, 7.62x54mmR, or .30-06 did, especially distribution into the US civilian market immediately post-WWII when a huge number of bolt-action battle rifles became surplus.

In South America, 7x57mm rifles were ubitiquous because of their wide adoption by armies there. I don't know the civilian markets there, what there are of them, but in Africa, at least, the same conditions translated into the 7x57mm Mauser becoming a common hunting round and being easily available in stores that caters to hunters, at any point from the 1920s to the 1990s and beyond.

That being said, nearly all American shooters of 7x57mm rifles have been reloaders. 7x57mm brass is common (the round was adopted by numerous militaries and was one of the most popular hunting rounds in Africa most of the 20th century), decently cheap and there is a good selection of bullets in the caliber.

I think that the armourer who oversaw acquisitions from 1987-1995 might have owned a custom takedown Mauser of his own before this. He did a lot of traveling in Africa from 1969-1986 and flew in light aircraft where space was at a premium. During his service in the British Army, he spent five years as an Armourer (Artisan) and a few more year later in his career as the NCO in charge of an armoury. At work, he used a Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 (T), but personally, he preferred sporterized Mausers.