Takedown Rifles (1990s)

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Those were extremely rare compared to AKMs and Mosin-Nagants, though. And the ammo is hard to get (and thus noteworthy if found at a crime scene) anywhere outside of Russia.

Well, it was also common in Afghanistan in the 90s...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Well, it was also common in Afghanistan in the 90s...

No, that's the thing.

It was a prized trophy among Mujahideen specifically because it was orders of magnitude rarer than infantry rifles and having one was held to be proof you had been involved in shooting down a helicopter or destroying an APC, because those were generally the one way to obtain them.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

No, that's the thing.

It was a prized trophy among Mujahideen specifically because it was orders of magnitude rarer than infantry rifles and having one was held to be proof you had been involved in shooting down a helicopter or destroying an APC, because those were generally the one way to obtain them.

I meant the ammo, sorry I wasn't clearer.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

No, you couldn't. However, normally it's attached to the stock, which comes off if you push out two pins, just like the rear pin on an M16. So if you just wanted to take it down for carriage, you'd pop those pins, remove the stock+recoil spring, and then pop the forward pin and remove the trigger group. Oh, if you had the collapsible stock that would help with the stock's length (but the long part is the barrel+receiver).

How long would it take to go from stowed in separated form to ready for shooting?

Assuming an ordinary skill check against IQ-based Guns or Armoury+4.

Originally Posted by Rupert

It's much harder shooting 2MOA groups at 300+ metres using iron sights than with a scope. And the removable mount doesn't make it less accurate, it risks a small change in point of aim if it's removed and replaced. I'm unaware of a similar removable mount that could be easily removed and reattached in that time period that was better.

Yes, it is much harder to use the rifles with only iron sights effectively at long ranges, which is the main reason I think some more modern takedown rifles with optics should be available.

Originally Posted by Rupert

In that case, of the conventional battle rifles a G3 is about as good as you'll get. M14s have that long wooden stock (and aren't weapons you can take down and reassemble swiftly), and the FN FAL is very long. M16s will end up slightly shorter if broken down, but not much. Your best bet for outright firepower would be an AKMS-47 or AKS-74 (or an AKS-74U if you can get one). Of course, that means you're accepting, ah, 'less than stellar' accuracy.

The use case for an AKS-74U or any AK modified as a similar 'Krinkov', as the Afghans called it, would be different than that for a takedown precision rifle. Granted, the 5.45x39mm round is actually accurate, but from very short barrels, the loss of velocity hurts at longer ranges. Still, with AKS-74U carbines, you do get a weapon useful at up to 150-200 meters that can fit into a 20" box even without disassembly.

Note that a 16" barrel Colt R6520 (or basically any commercial AR-15 rifle available pre-ban) can shoot sub-MOA with commercial match ammunition like the Federal Match (1989-1992)/Premium Match (1992-1993)/Gold Medal Match (1993) [all the same loading that simply changed names for marketing purposes, firing a 69 grain Sierra MatchKing bullet at 2,950 fps from a 24" barrel]. With a good Leupold Compact scope mounted, maybe the 3-9x33mm, that's very accurate at 300 meters.

For out to 600 yards, you can even load handloads with 80 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets (introduced in 1992). They are too long for the magazine, but perfectly suitable for loading singly, which is what competitors in Service Rifle matches did at the time. Granted, the loss of 150 fps of velocity for the 16" barrel instead of a 20" one really starts to limit performance at longer ranges and will hurt the chances of using it effectively out to 800+ yards, but at some point, if you want ranges that long, you'd switch to a heavier caliber anyway.

I'll definitely need some .308 Win rifles available.

[Icelander]

Assuming someone wants to build their own takedown bolt-action rifle at some point from 1987-1995, due to the lack of easily available commercial models, I need to establish some things.

First, they'd probably want to chamber it in .308 Win, for the easy availability of a wide variety of commercial ammunition and bullets suitable for tactical applications out to 800 yards (even back in the 1990s).

Second, they'd probably buy the action, including the receiver (in the US, the only part of the whole that is legally a 'firearm' and where the serial number is found), commercially. Good, reliable actions you can use to make accurate rifles are hard to make and it doesn't make sense for someone to spend a long time doing so if they can get the same thing from a factory.

That being said, we don't want rare, custom orders, either, so we either need an action of which many thousands are sold per year to all sorts of people or an older surplus military action. Commercially, Savage 110 actions make a lot of sense, because unlike Remington and Winchester in the period, Savage sold their actions separately, not just as parts of finished rifles, specifically for those who wanted to assemble their own rifles.

Third step is get an aftermarket barrel you can machine to be quickly detached and attached. It helps if the person making this has very high Armoury, as if this is not done well, the rifle will shift the point of impact every time you assemble it again. Even with high Armoury, it's unlikely that you'll retain the exact same PoI every time, but you might get it within 1 MOA.

The barrel can't be bedded to the stock, obviously, so it would be helpful to free float it. Some kind of forearm or foregrip may need to extend past the receiver, but it's probably easier to remove and attach the barrel if this is attached to the receiver and not the barrel.

This leds us to my fifth point. I'll need a stock, but not a typical hunting stock or the McMillan stocks used on tactical precision rifles of the period, of a one-piece design where the forearm was part of the stock.

What kind of rifle stocks were available in the time period 1987-1995 that were attached to the action, but didn't extend further?

It would help if it was adjustable, so that Length of Pull (LOP) might be set anywhere from 13" to 16". Or perhaps a folding or collapsible stock, as long as it one that will let you handle the recoil of a .308 Win and shoot accurately at long range. I don't need 0.5 MOA rifle (for one thing, the shift in point of impact when the barrel is attached will probably imit practical accuracy for one shot when deployed from takedown carry to no better than 1.5-2 MOA), but with the right ammo, it should be possible to use it out to 600-800 yards.

Anyone know of any stocks that might work?

Could you use a G3A4 pistol grip and collapsible stock with a bolt-action action, like a Savage 110?

Probably, but I doubt that collapsible stock is any use for precision shooting at long range.

[Donny Brook]

Maybe some of these would interest you.

[Sam Baughn]

The obvious answer would seem to be taking a Savage 110 (or whatever) stock, drilling a big hole through it at a slight angle, cutting it at a couple of different angles to split it into two parts, then joining the two parts together with a large bolt when needed. Or cutting it into pieces and then mounting metal brackets to the sides so they can be joined together again. If you want to keep things cheap, not waste too much time, and be untraceable, the best bet is often to be crude.

https://imgur.com/PjSZcAh

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Assuming someone wants to build their own takedown bolt-action rifle at some point from 1987-1995 . . .

Presumably an Accuracy International Precision Marksman won't dismantle far enough?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Presumably an Accuracy International Precision Marksman won't dismantle far enough?

I have no idea how well it can be broken down for transport and how quickly it can be put back together. Nor how close it would shoot to the same point of impact after reassambly, without zeroing it again.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

The obvious answer would seem to be taking a Savage 110 (or whatever) stock, drilling a big hole through it at a slight angle, cutting it at a couple of different angles to split it into two parts, then joining the two parts together with a large bolt when needed. Or cutting it into pieces and then mounting metal brackets to the sides so they can be joined together again. If you want to keep things cheap, not waste too much time, and be untraceable, the best bet is often to be crude.

https://imgur.com/PjSZcAh

Yes, that sounds sensible.

Still need a stock that combined with the action will not be longer than the barrel. Assuming we want a 20" barrel, that means a fairly compact short-action and no more than 13.5" LOP or a stock that can be shortened, partially collapsed or adjusted.