New Reality Seeds

[Gedrin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Either way, Centrum doesn't hate democracy, they merely think it is worse than what they have.

I wouldn't say they hate functional democracy, but I doubt they're immune to ideological criticism of it. Disdain is probably a better description of their feelings. Democracy is inferior, misguided and potentially dangerous. Enlightened people can see this. People who can't, are blind/dumb/ignorant. This is the typical form for the view of a "superior culture".

They appear to have the same philosophical evangelism as Homeline. To a certain extent, it doesn't matter if they hate democracy. They prefer to replace it in favor of systems closer to their own. Where they accommodate democracy, it's probably only by necessity, and likely only for so long as it has utility.

Really, without knowing more about Centrum's ideology, it's hard to say more about how they view democracy. This is purposefully vague to allow GM's to design the kind of Centrum they want. We know they try to replace it where they can with a central authority that rewards "merit" and unifies culture. They view it as ideologically incompatible, but something that can be tolerated. It might be they dislike pluralism. It might even be that, on a world with one acceptable political ideology, any and all others are considered bad/lesser. While I'm certain Homeline is rife with discussion about Centrum's political systems, and the possibility of learning from them, that sort of thing is probably restricted to "the right people", if it occurs at all, on Centrum.

[Astromancer]

Try this idea, in the years after 1683, when the second siege of Vienna has failed, a reformer Sultan comes to the throne and has the alliance of a reform minded Grand Vizier. Basically the Ottoman state undergoes the same transformation that Russia follows under Peter the Great. However with certain advantages. By 1750 the Nile/Red Sea canal is dug, most folks call it the Suez Canal. The Merchants of Greece and Venice dominate the trade, but at least the Ottomans can tax it.

The local year is 1812. Napoleon is in retreat from Moscow. Europe is in Chaos, the Sublime Porte seeing weakness, prepares an invasion of Frankland or "Europe" as they call it. Ottoman eyes are on Red Apple or as the local barbarians call it, London.

A revived Ottoman Empire vs. Napoleonic Europe exhausted by decades of war.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The local year is 1812. Napoleon is in retreat from Moscow. Europe is in Chaos, the Sublime Porte seeing weakness, prepares an invasion of Frankland or "Europe" as they call it. Ottoman eyes are on Red Apple or as the local barbarians call it, London.

Are they planning to reach Great Britain by conquering all of Europe, or by sea? The first is going to be a long job, even in the immediate post-Napoleon period. The latter is going to be tough.

The British will defend Malta and Gibraltar, but allow the Ottoman fleet to reach the Atlantic because sea conditions there are tougher than in the Mediterranean, and the Turks won't be used to them. The historical Battle of Navarino suggests that the battle may not be easy for the invaders.

[patchwork]

Were I in that position, I'd liberate Spain from Joseph and re-establish an Emirate of Cordoba; yes, it'll go badly, but that's why we're still in 1812. And it will immensely complicate Britain's attempts to finish Bonaparte off. Britain is a lovely prize but one that will take a LOT of time and work to break. Step one must be to close the Pillars of Hercules to British warships.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Are they planning to reach Great Britain by conquering all of Europe, or by sea? The first is going to be a long job, even in the immediate post-Napoleon period. The latter is going to be tough.

The British will defend Malta and Gibraltar, but allow the Ottoman fleet to reach the Atlantic because sea conditions there are tougher than in the Mediterranean, and the Turks won't be used to them. The historical Battle of Navarino suggests that the battle may not be easy for the invaders.

It's a revived Ottoman Imperium. It will move quickly overland.

I don't think London is in peril, however, a war torn Europe could fall to a Neo-Ottoman state.

Of course the real Ottoman Empire in 1812 was in decay and the Janissaries, were hopeless as an army, and were a powerful mafia that sapped the state and economy keeping things stagnant. This setting involves a totally reformed Ottoman state.

But good call on navies. The Ottomans never liked those.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by patchwork

Were I in that position, I'd liberate Spain from Joseph and re-establish an Emirate of Cordoba; yes, it'll go badly, but that's why we're still in 1812. And it will immensely complicate Britain's attempts to finish Bonaparte off. Britain is a lovely prize but one that will take a LOT of time and work to break. Step one must be to close the Pillars of Hercules to British warships.

Good point. Capture Spain and you can slowly exclude Britain from the Mediterranean. This is more important in this Parallel because there's a canal in Egypt connecting the Red and Mediterranean seas.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

But good call on navies. The Ottomans never liked those.

In previous centuries, the Ottoman Navy had been large and highly effective. However, if the Empire has suddenly got its act back together, rebuilding a nineteenth-century navy and developing its competence take a while. The British possession of the Ionian Islands will mean that the UK becomes part of the conflict fairly early.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Try this idea, in the years after 1683, when the second siege of Vienna has failed, a reformer Sultan comes to the throne and has the alliance of a reform minded Grand Vizier. Basically the Ottoman state undergoes the same transformation that Russia follows under Peter the Great. However with certain advantages. By 1750 the Nile/Red Sea canal is dug, most folks call it the Suez Canal. The Merchants of Greece and Venice dominate the trade, but at least the Ottomans can tax it.

The local year is 1812. Napoleon is in retreat from Moscow. Europe is in Chaos, the Sublime Porte seeing weakness, prepares an invasion of Frankland or "Europe" as they call it. Ottoman eyes are on Red Apple or as the local barbarians call it, London.

A revived Ottoman Empire vs. Napoleonic Europe exhausted by decades of war.

Well, the Ottomans have put their foot in it, for certain sure, this time. It’s winter of 1812, so the Ottoman’s won’t be starting operations until spring of 1813. They start by attacking the Austrian Empire which flags for aid to the rest of the Sixth Coalition. The Battle of Lepanto, was only 242 years ago, not quite yesterday by European standards. The Prussians and Russians immediately rush troops to Austria’s aid, feeling that Napoleon will keep retreating to France with what’s left of his broken Grande Army.

Spain and Portugal remember the Moorish Conquest and have no especial desire to repeat the Reconquista, so they are ready to join the fight against the Ottomans as soon as Joseph is dealt with.

When Napoleon reaches Paris, he recruits his second Grande Army, just as in the OTL. However, he has come to the early realization that France probably can’t hold against the Sixth Coalition, not in the long term. He is willing to give up the conquest of Europe, if the Coalition will leave him in peace in France. He has also realized that the chances of the coalition doing so are extremely thin, unless he can do something as an earnest of his good will. Napoleon is able to set the Grande Army afire with a different patriotic fervor. France saved Europe from the Moors under Charles Martel and again under Charlemagne. It is time for France to ride forth for a third time to save Europe from the Mussulmen.

Napoleon instructs Joseph to sue for peace and offer an alliance with Spain, Portugal and the United Kingdom against their common foe, the Ottomans.

The Ottomans advance stalls just outside Vienna when the eastern half of the coalition is joined by the Grande Army and the western half of the coalition. The Ottomans have revitalized a war-weary grouping of mostly battle-hardened troops. With Wellington and Alexander I at Napoleon’s left and right hand, the Ottomans’ chances have just gone South.

[David Johnston2]

Becquerel: The discovery of radioactivity is delayed leading to the Manhattan Project not happening. Now in 1970 without nuclear arsenals to discourage them World War III is raging between the communists and the West.

Arnold-2: Benedict Arnold becomes the first president of the United States. For some reason this leads to a worst case scenario world, where, for example slavery is widely accepted in many nations, the United States is even more aggressive, and nobody even knows how to spell "Geneva Convention".

Sandford: The British got a big boost to their technological development starting in 1851. Evidence suggests that an engineer from another universe named Sandford taught them things like the lightbulb and the internal combustion engines. This of course increased British commercial and political dominance, but by the current date (1925) places like America, France and Germany have caught up and their own equivalent of the First World War looks like it will be breaking out in the next five years.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Well, the Ottomans have put their foot in it, for certain sure, this time. It’s winter of 1812, so the Ottoman’s won’t be starting operations until spring of 1813. They start by attacking the Austrian Empire which flags for aid to the rest of the Sixth Coalition. The Battle of Lepanto, was only 242 years ago, not quite yesterday by European standards. The Prussians and Russians immediately rush troops to Austria’s aid, feeling that Napoleon will keep retreating to France with what’s left of his broken Grande Army.

Spain and Portugal remember the Moorish Conquest and have no especial desire to repeat the Reconquista, so they are ready to join the fight against the Ottomans as soon as Joseph is dealt with.

When Napoleon reaches Paris, he recruits his second Grande Army, just as in the OTL. However, he has come to the early realization that France probably can’t hold against the Sixth Coalition, not in the long term. He is willing to give up the conquest of Europe, if the Coalition will leave him in peace in France. He has also realized that the chances of the coalition doing so are extremely thin, unless he can do something as an earnest of his good will. Napoleon is able to set the Grande Army afire with a different patriotic fervor. France saved Europe from the Moors under Charles Martel and again under Charlemagne. It is time for France to ride forth for a third time to save Europe from the Mussulmen.

Napoleon instructs Joseph to sue for peace and offer an alliance with Spain, Portugal and the United Kingdom against their common foe, the Ottomans.

The Ottomans advance stalls just outside Vienna when the eastern half of the coalition is joined by the Grande Army and the western half of the coalition. The Ottomans have revitalized a war-weary grouping of mostly battle-hardened troops. With Wellington and Alexander I at Napoleon’s left and right hand, the Ottomans’ chances have just gone South.

I like you. You are dangerous. ;-)