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Old 09-27-2015, 11:49 PM   #1
Koningkrush
 
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Default Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

Is it possible to force an opponent to make a sacrificial dodge for you by doing a contest of ST, DX, or Grappling skill to put them in the path of a projectile or weapon? What kind of penalties would go along with this? I would assume you would have a penalty for moving them in such a short amount of time with maybe a cumulative penalty per hex shift around you? Maybe the opponent would have to dodge instead of you with the -4 penalty from grappling with a failure resulting in them getting hit instead of you? Even if they do succeed in the dodge, would you still get your own dodge?
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

I just made up this new grapple maneuver. What do you guys think?

Forced Sacrificial Dodge:
Perform a contest of the best of ST, DX, or grappling skill at -4 to re-position yourself and the grappled subject to force the subject into a Sacrificial Dodge.
The Dodge is at -4 with failure meaning your grappled subject is hit.
If you fail to re-position, or if your grappled target succeeds in their Dodge, your dodge against the attack suffers the same -4 penalty that applied to your grappled subject.
This can be done multiple times per turn at a cumulative -2 for your contest and dodging after the first for both you and your grappled opponent. Shock penalties apply to the contest for both you and your subject.

I think this is pretty good because it simulates cinematic dodging done by Martial Artist fighters.
I could also see a huge barbarian or Judo master using some poor sap as a meat shield against a mob of enemies.

Last edited by Koningkrush; 09-28-2015 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 09-28-2015, 08:52 AM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

For moderate realism, I'd handle this by requiring the character declare a Wait, then when he is attacked he can use "Shoving People Around" (see Martial Arts p. 118 or Technical Grappling p. 25) to push the foe in the way of the attack. To do it as an unplanned reaction (that is, without a Wait), you probably need Trained by a Master, and would do the pushing around at -2 or so to skill (in a highly cinematic campaign, characters without TbaM can do it at -5). In either case, it probably uses up your Retreat for the round and success allows you to defend using your normal Grappling Parry, at +2 for your "shield," while failure means you don't get a defense against the attack. The foe resists the attempt to shove him around as normal, and can attempt any legal defense against the incoming attack, but suffers a -2 in addition to any penalties for facing, being grappled, and so forth.

A fully realistic version would simply impose the penalty for Cover to your foe's attack.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:23 AM   #4
Koningkrush
 
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Default Re: Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

I decided to boost the penalty to -6 if done as a defensive maneuver, or -3 if done using a Wait maneuver. Reason being is because I have seen people able to suddenly grab and jerk someone to the side in the path of something. In a way, it could even be a form of Evasion to get behind your opponent. Really, unless you are taking an All-Out Attack, the grapple only takes up half a second, leaving you with another half a second to complete this sudden jerking movement with a high penalty since you are trying to do it so quickly. The penalty is halved if using Wait since you get an extra half a second to do the action.

Also, I don't really agree with the person being "cover" since the person is sentient and can respond to the attack heading his way. He should have a chance to get out of the way as normal. Overall, I feel like this is somewhat balanced because of the large skill required to pull it off and the Dodge penalty that comes with failure.

Last edited by Koningkrush; 09-28-2015 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
I decided to boost the penalty to -6 if done as a defensive maneuver, or -3 if done using a Wait maneuver. Reason being is because I have seen people able to suddenly grab and jerk someone to the side in the path of something. In a way, it could even be a form of Evasion to get behind your opponent. Really, unless you are taking an All-Out Attack, the grapple only takes up half a second, leaving you with another half a second to complete this sudden jerking movement with a high penalty since you are trying to do it so quickly. The penalty is halved if using Wait since you get an extra half a second to do the action.
Using someone you aren't actively grappling with should require you to use Rapid Strike to both grapple them and push them into the way of the attack, imposing a further -6 (-3 with TbaM) to each action. Those cases where someone gets pulled out of the way of, say, a speeding truck would probably be resolved as All Out Attacks in GURPS - the character sees the incoming "attack" from a second or so out, doesn't freeze from surprise (unlike, perhaps, the would-be victim), and acts on their turn to grab the target and pull them out of the way. Watchful parents often already have the target grappled one-handed and have a Wait ready!
However you want to penalize it beyond that is up to you, although I'd suggest lessening the penalty for characters with TbaM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
Also, I don't really agree with the person being "cover" since the person is sentient and can respond to the attack heading his way. He should have a chance to get out of the way as normal. Overall, I feel like this is somewhat balanced because of the large skill required to pull it off and the Dodge penalty that comes with failure.
The full way of how it would work, the character would need to put the target into a cover position before the turn the attack is made even starts. This would impose a -2 on the attacker's roll, and if this makes the difference the cover - in this case the grappled foe - is hit instead. The grappled foe still gets the same defense he would if he were the intended target, and a successful Dodge would mean he didn't work as cover after all, and the original target is hit (provided he also fails his defense).
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Forced Sacrificial Dodge with Grapple?

Okay, I completely forgot about Rapid Strike lol. I've come up with a hybrid using your considerations for two possible ways to handle it.

Use a Rapid Strike maneuver to perform a Grapple with one hand, and a Shove with the other. The resulting Knockback from Shove determines how many Hexes you can move your target around you, causing him to become cover.
Done without Wait causes your entire body to be partially behind cover. All attacks made against you through your cover are at -2, and failures by 1 or 2 result in your cover being hit instead.
Done with Wait triggered by an attack made against you causes you to move your target in a position fast enough to force him to defend against the attack intended for you. This adds an additional -2 on top of the penalties for Rapid Strike.
His defenses have the usual limitations and penalties from being grappled. If he is able to block or parry, to attack is stopped completely. If he can successfully dodge, then the attack carries on to you as normal.

Is this better? Wait allows you to use what I initially had intended, but you can also do it preemptively to gain "cover" by performing a Rapid Strike (Or throughout two turns, but this wouldn't be very effective or practical in a fight).

Also, one more thing. Couldn't this be a Dual Weapon Attack rather than a rapid strike? You are using both hands as separate weapons, attacking at the same time with both a grapple and a shove.

Sorry if this seems like a bunch of over-complicated rules, but I want the option in the game to have all of these unique martial arts techniques that adds a ton of flavor to being the "monk" in a group of wizards and knights.

Last edited by Koningkrush; 09-30-2015 at 03:56 PM.
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