Rank in non-military (space) fleets/(space) navies?

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, the second part of your post (not quoted) seems convincing, but the first? Are you saying that I need Savoire-Faire (Military) and Soldier if I want to study Piloting, Spacer and Shiphandling? That's weird.

Not necessarily, but you need tactics, strategy, etc if you want to command the ship in battle, you need 'people skills' to hold the loyalty of your men (broadly defined) and avoid internal chaos and internecine troubles that can sap the effectiveness of your shipboard organization, social skills like detect lies or fast-talk may well be useful too. Command is a social function.

And military savoire-faire is not just empty ritual, either. The habits of command and subordination (as opposed to servility, not the same thing) that are cultivated and ingrained in routine times serve to make the organization function properly in the emergency when you have to Get It Right the first time, or else.

This is not quite as strict and critical on civilian ships...but it does matter there too. If the passenger liner is taking on water, or there's a fire on board, it's not the time to call a committee meeting and debate what to do, the ship's master has to decide and his/her decisions have to be carried out, even in the civilian environs.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Command requires specific skills, 'people skills' and shiphandling skills (the later being setting-specific, of course), that are separate from the skills one learns in scientific and diplomatic activities. It is, of course, possible to possess both sets of skills, or all three, but it doesn't follow necessarily from their natural activities.

It's quite possible that a scientist could also be a capable ship commander, or vice versa, but the skills are separate.

You mentioned people skills. But 'people skills' actually fall more into the diplomatic/political (and to some extent administrative) branch, no? Leadership, Diplomacy, Detect Lies and all that stuff.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

But the converse is not believable or plausible, for human beings. A science/diplomatic organization that does war 'on the side' won't be effective at war.

Of course. It would be silly to expect a half-dozen ships to wage war. Now, being able to self-defend in case of encounter with hypothetical space pirates (setting has no precedent of these, but they might be added), rogue autonomous probes (precedent exists), and other pests would probably fall into the level of their ability.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Unless provisions are made for emergency situations, this fleet is a disaster waiting for its moment to happen. With no centralized authority, no central organizing point, it's going to react to problems clumsily, slowly, and inefficiently at best. At the very least, there needs to be a 'commodore' or the equivalent who can assume fleet command in emergencies. Command by committee is a recipe for a very nasty dish.

Oh, it's certainly a fertile ground for internal rivalries and stuff. That's part of the campaign idea. Some fleet members are former enemies - they wouldn't want to allow a former enemy to become a single-person authority of the whole expedition.

Now, provisions for emergencies are certainly a good thing to have. I think this should be one of the perks of the First Captain. Any more tips?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Anyone who thinks that Starfleet is not a military organization is deluding themselves.

First of all, Commodore Stone in ToS episode "Court Martial" specifically calls Starfleet "The Service", a phrase that means the military.

Yeah, but it's during the TNG era that Starfleet started denying that it was a non-military service so I avoid bringing up TOS episodes when this matter comes up. It helps that the TNG era also had court martials.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Soldier's only necessary for ground pounders. Spacer is the space navy equivalent. As for Savoire-Faire (Military)... No. Not if you got your training from space pirates. Or merchants. It's just not especially likely that scientists and paper shufflers would have that training either.

The most likely thing might be to tap the skills of ex-military personnel. It has worked for years in commercial air traffic (going back to WWI veterans flying air mail).

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why incompetent?

They're certainly behaving more like an armed organization of diplomats and scientists than as a military with a couple of scientifically educated officers.

The Trek Navy is more like the Victorian Navy in function then it was like Hornblower's Navy. It was already decided who would own the seas. The Victorian Navy did things like policing, local diplomacy, and sometimes geographical surveying. It was in many ways rather like a heavily armed Coast Guard for several generations. When there was local trouble, all the responsibility for the Queens interest devolved to the Captain.

Arguably that paradigm fits ill with interstellar communications. But that is how it works in the show.

[Darekun]

It might be useful to borrow from the office of pirate captains for the First Captain; their authority over the other captains begins and ends with battle. You could add Emergencies Only to that last level of Rank to ballpark the cost :J

Are these different types of captain actually grafted together from different organizations? If so, they may be moving from a diverse set of ranks to something like NATO's rank scale. For a while, the ranks actually used will be "flavorless" codes, before a set of nicknames are upgraded to official status.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

But the converse is not believable or plausible, for human beings. A science/diplomatic organization that does war 'on the side' won't be effective at war.

I'd say this is exactly the trade Starfleet has performed in Next Gen — they aren't effective at war, because they've turned into a science/diplomatic organization. They rely on their economic edge(and, to a lesser degree, fleeting technological edges) when the fighting starts, and as a result, they end up in even fights against smaller ships from much-poorer peoples with actual military training.

In TOS, yes, Starfleet was military. Then the Klingon Empire's economy crashed, leading them to ally with the Federation. The Romulan Star Empire took longer to crash, but when they did they kind of hid from the other superpowers. (Maybe they pillaged the "barbarians"?) The Cardassian Union seems to have been the most recent real fight for the Federation, despite being small and poor; imagine if the USA were so unprepared for war that conflict with Iraq would result in a hard-fought stalemate.

They do keep a few military people around, or something. See the TNG episode Chain of Command([1], [2]) for a guest captain dragging the Enterprise kicking and screaming into a semblance of military order for a fight.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Darekun

It might be useful to borrow from the office of pirate captains for the First Captain; their authority over the other captains begins and ends with battle. You could add Emergencies Only to that last level of Rank to ballpark the cost :J

Are these different types of captain actually grafted together from different organizations? If so, they may be moving from a diverse set of ranks to something like NATO's rank scale. For a while, the ranks actually used will be "flavorless" codes, before a set of nicknames are upgraded to official status.


I'd say this is exactly the trade Starfleet has performed in Next Gen — they aren't effective at war, because they've turned into a science/diplomatic organization. They rely on their economic edge(and, to a lesser degree, fleeting technological edges) when the fighting starts, and as a result, they end up in even fights against smaller ships from much-poorer peoples with actual military training.

In TOS, yes, Starfleet was military. Then the Klingon Empire's economy crashed, leading them to ally with the Federation. The Romulan Star Empire took longer to crash, but when they did they kind of hid from the other superpowers. (Maybe they pillaged the "barbarians"?) The Cardassian Union seems to have been the most recent real fight for the Federation, despite being small and poor; imagine if the USA were so unprepared for war that conflict with Iraq would result in a hard-fought stalemate.

They do keep a few military people around, or something. See the TNG episode Chain of Command([1], [2]) for a guest captain dragging the Enterprise kicking and screaming into a semblance of military order for a fight.

I remember that, Jellico was a very refreshing character.

[Apache]

For a brief, fleeting moment of glory, many of us thought the show was going to kill off Picard and get rid of Riker, and replace them with the sheer awesome of Jellico and his new First Officer.

Lord knows by that time Stewart hated the show....

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Apache

For a brief, fleeting moment of glory, many of us thought the show was going to kill off Picard and get rid of Riker, and replace them with the sheer awesome of Jellico and his new First Officer.

Lord knows by that time Stewart hated the show....

Granted Jellico went a tad too far the other way, but it was refreshing to see someone cut through some nonsense.

But there was no real chance of STTNG ever getting away from the attitudes that dominated it, because those attitudes dominated the thinking of the production staff, writers, and (in a diluted form) derived from Roddenberry and his goofy utopian vision of human nature and the future.