Ghost - Problems with Insubstantiality

[Bruno]

Being able to pick up a physical object without making part of yourself become physical and without making the object insubstantial is powerful - you sidestep the Affect Substantial problem while getting nearly all of the benefits. Which is why I argue that you can't skip Affect Substantial if you want to be able to stabinate people while completely insubstantial. The abuse potential isn't significantly lessened if your intention is only to spookily levitate objects and freak out normal people; what I would need to consider cutting back on that would be actually restricting what you can do, not what you plan on doing.

You're more inconvenienced because you can't take that knife with you through a wall, so it's obviously less than the full "Untouchable Deadly Assassin" package which ALSO lets you turn things Insubstantial, but I would argue that it's not the +50% cosmic that's the odd-enhancement out in this case, nor the Affects Substantial, nor really Can Carry Objects (as that's necessary for the full Partial).

Partial (+100%) is the problem because there's no intermediary between the full 100% (which allows converting objects AND handling them without converting your own body parts) and the 20% level (which only allows converting your own body parts).

I wouldn't make the intermediary level of Partial any less than +80%. Its still the worst parts of the abuse combo :) I might allow a -20% limitation to be applied directly to Can Cary Objects.

If your ghost can only levitate objects spookily, rather than throw or attack with them (even including shooting guns: NO hostile action), I'd let you drop Affects Insubstantial, but not the Cosmic.

[Figleaf23]

I'm just reading over the text in Characters, and I can't make any sense of what the difference is supposed to be between 20% and 100% levels of Partial Change.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Langy

Er, no it doesn't. It is the method from powers you just posted.

EDIT: To be clear, I just pre-calculated the cost of the innate attack and shoved it into the cost of ST. It follows a simple progression - +1d per eight levels, or +1 to damage per 2 levels. +1 damage in a crushing attack is 0.3 times 5 points or 1.5 points; thus, +1 ST is 0.75 points; factor in the +300% modifier and it's 3*0.75 points.

Also, the Affects Substantial bit isn't just for the ST-based damage. It's also to carry things and stuff.

Shouldn't you use the method in Power-Ups 4 for adding enhancements to things like ST?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Yes. Just remember to pay the extra points for that enhancement on the ST 10 you get for free. That's 300 points to make the default free ST 10; then each additional ST +1 costs 40 points.

You don't pay it on the cost of ST itself; you modify your punch and/or kick damage (or top weapon damage, if you can poke a sword through armor or a wall) as though it had been bought as an IA.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Being able to pick up a physical object without making part of yourself become physical and without making the object insubstantial is powerful - you sidestep the Affect Substantial problem while getting nearly all of the benefits. Which is why I argue that you can't skip Affect Substantial if you want to be able to stabinate people while completely insubstantial. The abuse potential isn't significantly lessened if your intention is only to spookily levitate objects and freak out normal people; what I would need to consider cutting back on that would be actually restricting what you can do, not what you plan on doing.

I agree, it is powerful--intentionally so. This is going to be a powerful character.

Originally Posted by Bruno

You're more inconvenienced because you can't take that knife with you through a wall, so it's obviously less than the full "Untouchable Deadly Assassin" package which ALSO lets you turn things Insubstantial, but I would argue that it's not the +50% cosmic that's the odd-enhancement out in this case, nor the Affects Substantial, nor really Can Carry Objects (as that's necessary for the full Partial).

I agree it's not the +50% cosmic. I agree I need Affects Substantial (I have it on my ST). I am confused as to how full Partial is even needed.*

Originally Posted by Bruno

Partial (+100%) is the problem because there's no intermediary between the full 100% (which allows converting objects AND handling them without converting your own body parts) and the 20% level (which only allows converting your own body parts).

What? No, the 100% version explicitly states that you have to turn your hand substantial to turn an object substantial. I thought it was your +50% cosmic that let you touch without converting your own body parts? And then, it would work with either the 20% or the 100% right?*

Originally Posted by Bruno

I wouldn't make the intermediary level of Partial any less than +80%. Its still the worst parts of the abuse combo :) I might allow a -20% limitation to be applied directly to Can Cary Objects.

And what would this intermediary level of Partial do? I'm confused as to what you are trying to state here.*

Originally Posted by Bruno

If your ghost can only levitate objects spookily, rather than throw or attack with them (even including shooting guns: NO hostile action), I'd let you drop Affects Insubstantial, but not the Cosmic.

Again--its supposed to be a powerful character. I brought up the brain poke thing because it's something they're supposed to be able to do (and we modified ST with the ignores DR to model this).


*Ok, lets examine the text for full Partial:

or +100% if you can turn an item you
are carrying substantial without dropping
it (this requires turning your
hand substantial, too).

By this, I am understanding that the only thing that the +100% version gives that the +20% does not is the ability to turn a 'carried' object substantial. My character does NOT have this ability, so why not just get the 20% version?

Also, note the wording--'carried' object is implied to be a once substantial object that you turned substantial, presumably by Can Carry (which is I assume why you listed Can Carry as a prerequisite for full Partial). This, to me, seems to imply that Can Carry is entirely referring to how much you can have on your person and turn insubstantial with you. My character does not have this ability. I will admit that the 20% partial states that to carry an object, you need Can Carry (though I might still argue that this is because you can yoink objects into the insubstantial realm--turn your hand substantial, grab the MacGuffin, turn your hand insubstantial--which my character can NOT do), but at the very least, I do not see why I need the 100% partial.

[Figleaf23]

Partial Change Says:

"You can turn part
of your body substantial while other
parts remain insubstantial, or vice
versa. Thus, you could reach through
a wall and tap someone on the shoulder."

Okay so far, but then it says:

"If you also have Can Carry
Objects, you can materialize your
hand, pick up material objects, and
carry them while insubstantial."

But why do you need Can Carry Objects for that? If you can tap a shoulder, why can't you do other physical tasks? And how does Can Carry Objects have anything to do with it, since Can Carry Objects is the ability to make this insubstantial not to lift them.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Partial Change Says:

"You can turn part
of your body substantial while other
parts remain insubstantial, or vice
versa. Thus, you could reach through
a wall and tap someone on the shoulder."

Okay so far, but then it says:

"If you also have Can Carry
Objects, you can materialize your
hand, pick up material objects, and
carry them while insubstantial."

But why do you need Can Carry Objects for that? If you can tap a shoulder, why can't you do other physical tasks? And how does Can Carry Objects have anything to do with it, since Can Carry Objects is the ability to make this insubstantial not to lift them.

Yeah, that's the interpretation I want to make when I read it too--I kind of want to read the "while insubstantial" as the limiter here, stating that as long as you keep the object substantial, you don't need Can Carry... but Idk if that's my inner munchkin subconsciously manipulating me or not.