Ghost - Problems with Insubstantiality

[Dusqune]

Insubstantiality has always been one of the hardest traits for me to understand, personally, on a mechanical level. A lot of my problems with it are derived from the fact that it is written in a way which assumes you do not take the Always On limitation.

What I am trying to model:
I want, essentially, a ghost. This ghost is more or less substantial with the ability to interact with the physical world selectively. I.e., she cannot be touched unless she lets you, and she can touch, grab, pick up, punch, etc. whatever she likes. Simple enough concept.

Problems:
-Can Carry Objects
I literally want her to be able to 'carry' an object. From the description of the enhancement (B63), I have gathered (perhaps incorrectly) that once an object is held, it becomes insubstantial.
My understanding is that by itself, (and with the normal, switchable insubstantiality) this enhancement would let one turn substantial, pick up an object and turn insubstantial, turning the object insubstantial as well. Then, if you have the Partial enhancement at 20%, then you can pick up something, thereby turning it insubstantial, and with the 100%, you can choose to keep it substantial.
What I want is for her to ONLY be able to keep it substantial. For instance, if she were to pick up a trinket and try to walk through a wall, she could not carry the trinket through the wall--it has remained substantial. However, I cannot find a clear-cut way to represent this in the rules. Do you simply not take the Can Carry Objects enhancement to show that no objects can be turned insubstantial? (If this is the case, then the enhancement needs a new name to avoid confusion)

-Attacks
The other major problem I'm having trouble modeling is the attack power this ghost would have. The book gives an example with the Partial enhancement of reaching through a wall and tapping someone on the shoulder. What if you wanted to reach through someone's skull and tap them (violently) on the brain? I don't think even the 100% version charges enough points for that.
However, I don't know how to model it. My first thought was to create an innate attack, but how do you model the fact that it ignores skull DR? Essentially, every unarmed strike can go directly to the brain or vitals, possibly with reduced to hit penalties??

Also, side-note-question, would reflexive model the ability to essentially not create a vulnerable 'substantial point' at your hands when you pick up an object?

I would be very grateful for any insight you could lend!

[Refplace]

A simple solution is to take TK with Affects Substantial and use that to pick up things. Give it the No range limitation as well but otherwise its a good poltergeist effect.

Attacks could be modeled as Afflcition Heart Attack or IA with Cosmic Ignores DR.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

I literally want her to be able to 'carry' an object. From the description of the enhancement (B63), I have gathered (perhaps incorrectly) that once an object is held, it becomes insubstantial.

Yes. Because GURPS tries to play by the rules of physics, and charges you points for breaking them, then by default an insubstantial creature can't pick up an object, because when they try, their hand (or whatever) just goes through it.

What I want is for her to ONLY be able to keep it substantial. For instance, if she were to pick up a trinket and try to walk through a wall, she could not carry the trinket through the wall--it has remained substantial.

What you need there is Telekinesis. Note that this will require to buy Affects Substantial on your Insubstantiality.

What if you wanted to reach through someone's skull and tap them (violently) on the brain? I don't think even the 100% version charges enough points for that. However, I don't know how to model it. My first thought was to create an innate attack, but how do you model the fact that it ignores skull DR? Essentially, every unarmed strike can go directly to the brain or vitals, possibly with reduced to hit penalties??

Innate Attack, with some degree of Cosmic to represent the ability to bypass defences, and the GM's express permission. I doubt I'd let a character take this; if you wanted Invisibility as well, the answer would be "Hell, no!"

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

What I am trying to model:
I want, essentially, a ghost. This ghost is more or less substantial with the ability to interact with the physical world selectively. I.e., she cannot be touched unless she lets you, and she can touch, grab, pick up, punch, etc. whatever she likes. Simple enough concept.

Problems:
-Can Carry Objects
I literally want her to be able to 'carry' an object.

Then get her telekinesis with "Can Affect Substantial". It also covers being able to grab and punch.

What if you wanted to reach through someone's skull and tap them (violently) on the brain?

Well, that's kind of silly. But you do it by adding "Armour Piercing" to your telekinesis.

I don't think even the 100% version charges enough points for that.
However, I don't know how to model it. My first thought was to create an innate attack, but how do you model the fact that it ignores skull DR? Essentially, every unarmed strike can go directly to the brain or vitals, possibly with reduced to hit penalties??

There's no reason why the to hit penalties would be reduced.
\

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Refplace

A simple solution is to take TK with Affects Substantial and use that to pick up things. Give it the No range limitation as well but otherwise its a good poltergeist effect.

Attacks could be modeled as Afflcition Heart Attack or IA with Cosmic Ignores DR.

Cosmic. I always forget about Cosmic. Can I throw Cosmic: Does What I Want 100% on there and call it done? XD

I will concede your suggestions may be the best ways to model this, but I don't like this method. It forces you to run three different stats in tandem: ST, TK, and IA--you cannot modify one without modifying the others because they are all emulating one thing: your character's actual ST... so why not just model it all in a more simple, concise manner by which you just have ST. Besides the grubbiness, even if it isn't a point crock (it is, see analysis at bottom) it feels like it when you have to buy two extra abilities to emulate things you can just do with your hands.

Even besides that, does TK allow you to use it on things you cannot see? (e.g., tapping someone on the shoulder through a wall, assuming you didn't stick your head through too) If so, can you TK poke someone's brain? At which point I think the obvious answer is no. (Else, I'm so totally going TK every game!)

Originally Posted by johndallman

Yes. Because GURPS tries to play by the rules of physics, and charges you points for breaking them, then by default an insubstantial creature can't pick up an object, because when they try, their hand (or whatever) just goes through it.

What you need there is Telekinesis. Note that this will require to buy Affects Substantial on your Insubstantiality.

Innate Attack, with some degree of Cosmic to represent the ability to bypass defences, and the GM's express permission. I doubt I'd let a character take this; if you wanted Invisibility as well, the answer would be "Hell, no!"

Oh yeah, not to mention that it costs 80 more points to model it with TK...

But yeah, part of the point here is that the average Joe totally stands no chance against this Ghost--it quite literally can interact with you, but you can't interact with it. HOWEVER, that's not to say that the insubstantiality can't be overcome--I'm thinking most villains will have some method by which to at least deal damage to this character.

And she's not invisible. ;)

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

There's no reason why the to hit penalties would be reduced.
\

I was thinking of lack of ribs getting in the way? Do ribs give DR?
In any case, that's why I put double questionmarks.

--
Quick analysis of TK though (ghosty attacks not included)
80pts for affects substantial (+100%)
I'm to lazy to do math right now (Just got through with Differential Equations final the other day >.<), but lets say a no range TK w affects substantial +whatever comes out to about 5pts/lvl
50 for 10TK (average person)
Total:120

~VS~

someone with the ability to also turn stuff insubstantial when they pick it up:
160 (+100% can carry, heavy//+100% Partial)
Total:160

So assuming I can do math, it's not as terribad as I expected, but considering the ability to 'turn an object insubstantial' with normal switchable insubstantiality is 80pts, it's still slightly disappointing. Also, factoring in that a [Edit] ST 19 character would pay MORE points do be able to do less is... well, let's just say unacceptable.

Also, can you get Partial Change without Can Carry? If so..what does this represent other than picking stuff up and it not becoming insubstantial?

[Refplace]

Can Carry is not so you can lift things but so that they can be affected by your power and you can take them with you when you go insubstantial.
Its the same enhancement for various powers.

Partial is what you want to touch things and that would be enough to let you lift them.
You do need the Affects Substantial enhancement if your going to be attacking things while insubstantial however.

Ignores DR is a +300% enhancement by the way not +100% and you could put it on your ST if you like.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Ignores DR is a +300% enhancement by the way not +100% and you could put it on your ST if you like.

Yes. Just remember to pay the extra points for that enhancement on the ST 10 you get for free. That's 300 points to make the default free ST 10; then each additional ST +1 costs 40 points.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Can Carry is not so you can lift things but so that they can be affected by your power and you can take them with you when you go insubstantial.
Its the same enhancement for various powers.

Partial is what you want to touch things and that would be enough to let you lift them.
You do need the Affects Substantial enhancement if your going to be attacking things while insubstantial however.

Ignores DR is a +300% enhancement by the way not +100% and you could put it on your ST if you like.

Ok, right, when I go insubstantial Can Carry comes into effect... but if I'm never substantial (Always On) this does nothing. Also, from what you just described, I'm guessing I can just not take Can Carry and pick things up with Partial, which was all I was wanting to do (on the noncombat front).

Now, on the combat front, do you need Affects Substantial just to punch someone? Assuming you already have Partial (you can tap them, so...?).

And Ignores DR on ST is brilliant! ...sortof? How would you handle a ST 10 character? Do you say, "You have 10 lvls of ST, so 10*10*3=300pts to ignore DR"? Or, is it fair to just buy it with stringing ST? say "You have 10 lvls of ST, that's 10 of striking ST, so 10*5*3=150"? 150 pts to ignore DR with punches only seems reasonable to me, esp considering it increases with ST to balance you out.

[EDIT]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Yes. Just remember to pay the extra points for that enhancement on the ST 10 you get for free. That's 300 points to make the default free ST 10; then each additional ST +1 costs 40 points.

Thx! Was typing before your post came up.
Still are you sure it applies to the whole ST or just striking ST?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

C

--
Quick analysis of TK though (ghosty attacks not included)
80pts for affects substantial (+100%)
I'm to lazy to do math right now (Just got through with Differential Equations final the other day >.<), but lets say a no range TK w affects substantial +whatever comes out to about 5pts/lvl
50 for 10TK (average person)
Total:120

~VS~

someone with the ability to also turn stuff insubstantial when they pick it up:
160 (+100% can carry, heavy//+100% Partial)
Total:160

So assuming I can do math, it's not as terribad as I expected, but considering the ability to 'turn an object insubstantial' with normal switchable insubstantiality is 80pts, it's still slightly disappointing.

Except that telekinesis gives you the ability to grapple, punch and throw while remaining invulnerable even to a targeted or explosive attack. Invulnerability isn't cheap.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Except that telekinesis gives you the ability to grapple, punch and throw while remaining invulnerable even to a targeted or explosive attack. Invulnerability isn't cheap.

Hence my question about reflexive. Good point though.