Knowledge skills for Mythology

[Inky]

Christianity has a little of this too - well-known legends that are not actually from any Bible or in official church teaching. Fan-fiction, you might call it. For instance, a lot of mediaeval carols feature apocryphal or plain made-up incidents from the life of Jesus, e.g. "King Herod and the Cock" or "The Miraculous Harvest". And as some of you may know, "Lucifer" was never supposed to be another name for the devil, but somehow it stuck. And there's the legend about how Mary Magdalene may or may not have married Jesus and may or may not have settled in Provence, which maybe actually has ancient origins but, whether it has or not, seems to have been embroidered on many ways by many different people!

And then there's things that happen when magic gets in on the act - which may involve making mythology up on purpose. Going by a few odds and ends I've read, there seems to be a Germanic tradition of making spells by describing a completely made-up incident where the gods did the thing you're trying to do.

This is an example known as the Second Merseburg Charm (originally in Old High German):

Phol and Wodan were riding to the woods,
and the foot of Balder's foal was sprained
So Sinthgunt, Sunna's sister, conjured it;
and Frija, Volla's sister, conjured it;
and Wodan conjured it, as well he could:

So bone-sprain, so blood-sprain, so joint-sprain:
Bone to bone, blood to blood,
joints to joints, so may they be glued.

And this, from Norway, is apparently the same spell translated into Christian:

Jesus rode to the heath,
There he rode the leg of his colt in two.
Jesus dismounted and heal'd it;
Jesus laid marrow to marrow,
Bone to bone, flesh to flesh;
Jesus laid thereon a leaf,
That it might remain in the same place.

And here is a strange object from a book called The Long-Lost Friend, a collection of various spells and remedies by a German living in Pennsylvania.

TO SPELL-BIND A THIEF HE THAT HE CANNOT STIR.

This benediction must be spoken on a Thursday morning, before sunrise and in the open air:

"Thus shall rule it, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen. Thirty-three Angels speak to each other coming to administer in company with Mary. Then spoke dear Daniel, the holy one: Trust, my dear woman, I see some thieves coming who intend stealing your dear babe; this I cannot conceal from you. Then spake our dear Lady to Saint Peter: I have bound with a band, through Christ's hand; therefore, my thieves are bound even by the hand of Christ, if they wish to steal mine own, in the house, in the chest, upon the meadow or fields, in the woods, in the orchard, in the vineyard, or in the garden, or wherever they intend to steal. Our dear Lady said: Whoever chooses may steal; yet if anyone does steal, he shall stand like a buck, he shall stand like a stake, and shall count all the stones upon the earth, and all the stars in the heavens. Thus I give thee leave, and command every spirit to be master over every thief, by the guardianship of Saint Daniel, and by the burden of this world's goods. And the countenance shall be unto thee, that thou canst not move from the spot, as long as my tongue in the flesh shall not give thee leave. This I command thee by the Holy Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, by the power and might by which he has created heaven and earth, by the host of all the angels, and by all the saints of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen." If you wish to set the thief free, you must tell him to leave in the name of St. John.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

If someone had a Ph.D. in Mythological Studies, or Comparative Mythology, what would their main skills be? Literature (perhaps with a specialization)? Occultism? Connoisseur (literature) (also with a specialization)? Theology (Comparative)?

What about studies of folk lore? same skills? Expert skill ([region/time] folklore)?

I personally would use Literature [mythology] or [folklore] in most cases, but then I use Literature for overall familiarity with pretty much any body of language based, and occasionally even other kinds of, art.

All GURPS' "know things" skills - Area Knowledge, Connoisseur, History, Law, Literature, Theology etc. - suffer from problems if you try to interpret them as written, largely because of the way they (all differently) (mis)handle specializations. I handle all of them with "specialize in anything you like, and we'll assign "defaults" to whatever skill I've set the roll needed against by assessing a +/-3 per factor of 10 (+/-1 per factor of 2) between the difference in the amount of material we guess your chosen speciality and the target one cover).

If you are determined to stick with the RAW I think he needs a lot of different Theology skills at low levels, and probably History ones for each culture, possibly several of them for several time periods of it, at lower ones. There is no appropriate overarching skill. The primary skill of anybody with a humanities PhD is likely to be Research though. It's not actually unlikely that his knowledge of the details of any particular mythology isn't all that deep.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

If someone had a Ph.D. in Mythological Studies, or Comparative Mythology, what would their main skills be? Literature (perhaps with a specialization)? Occultism? Connoisseur (literature) (also with a specialization)? Theology (Comparative)?

Anyone with a doctorate should at least dabble in Research, Teaching and Writing.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Anyone with a doctorate should at least dabble in Research, Teaching and Writing.

Public Speaking at least used to be appropriate, though I've seen presentations at a recent Mythcon that were just a series of PowerPoint screens with commentary, rather than an actual lecture.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Religious Ritual defaults from Theology but not Literature.

I doubt anyone reading this has any points in Ancient Greek (or Roman) Theology but most have some knowledge of the classical gods and heroes. Our knowledge would be coming from Literature and not Theology.

I would guess that the Literature skill allows you to remember the stories, and the theology tells you how to apply them. In previous eras, a Homeric style bard probably knows the literature ... in the modern era, it's quite possible to be a fantasy writer with no actual knowledge of "real world" history, mythology or anything else, but the better ones will have.

Originally Posted by Inky

Christianity has a little of this too - well-known legends that are not actually from any Bible or in official church teaching. Fan-fiction, you might call it. For instance, a lot of mediaeval carols feature apocryphal or plain made-up incidents from the life of Jesus, e.g. "King Herod and the Cock" or "The Miraculous Harvest". And as some of you may know, "Lucifer" was never supposed to be another name for the devil, but somehow it stuck. And there's the legend about how Mary Magdalene may or may not have married Jesus and may or may not have settled in Provence, which maybe actually has ancient origins but, whether it has or not, seems to have been embroidered on many ways by many different people!

And then there's things that happen when magic gets in on the act - which may involve making mythology up on purpose. Going by a few odds and ends I've read, there seems to be a Germanic tradition of making spells by describing a completely made-up incident where the gods did the thing you're trying to do.

I understand that some of the pseudo-Christian stuff may also include pagan material that re-skinned (as per the pagan and Christian charms to unlame a horse you quoted).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I would guess that the Literature skill allows you to remember the stories, and the theology tells you how to apply them.

Someone with Theology ought to be able to explain what he stories were intended to teach but the stories aren't the whole thing. There are all sorts of points of doctrine that don't spring from entertaining stories.

As just one example take the dietary restrictions in the Old Testament and how to apply them. You could know lots of Bible stories and not really know what those were.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As just one example take the dietary restrictions in the Old Testament and how to apply them. You could know lots of Bible stories and not really know what those were.

True, though those aren't Theology, either. I'd call them either Law or Religious Ritual.

For a different example, in the New Testament, the Gospels are clearly Literature (though there's some Theology mixed in), but substantial parts of the Epistles are Theology. And I suppose the Revelation is Theology rather than Literature, though some of it takes a narrative form.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by whswhs

True, though those aren't Theology, either. I'd call them either Law or Religious Ritual.

For a different example, in the New Testament, the Gospels are clearly Literature (though there's some Theology mixed in), but substantial parts of the Epistles are Theology. And I suppose the Revelation is Theology rather than Literature, though some of it takes a narrative form.

Also using christianity as an example: Much of christian 'mythology' that isn't directly just bible stories is based on Dante, Milton, and other literary works, all the literature skill, and some of it is based on folklore and absorbed pagan folklore and stories.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Also using christianity as an example: Much of christian 'mythology' that isn't directly just bible stories is based on Dante, Milton, and other literary works, all the literature skill, and some of it is based on folklore and absorbed pagan folklore and stories.

Plus Jewish material from the oral Torah, material from the various lives of saints (I'd actually call the Golden Legend way more important than Milton, Dante maybe not), material written by the "Apostolic Fathers" (that leans more to Theology, but there are some myths in there), books that didn't make the cut for the Biblical canon (the Shepherd of Hermas for example was more widely read in the middle ages than most of the Biblical books outside the Gospels)....

Also I suspect most people learn their mythology from secondary sources, where it is written down and systematized that from primary sources where it is likely to be scattered all over the place. This is probably true even when there aren't all that many sources (I'm pretty sure more people have learned the names and characteristics of the Valar and Maiar from Foster's Complete Guide to Middle Earth than dug them out of Tolkein's writings), never mind for any complicated myth system.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Also I suspect most people learn their mythology from secondary sources, where it is written down and systematized that from primary sources where it is likely to be scattered all over the place. This is probably true even when there aren't all that many sources (I'm pretty sure more people have learned the names and characteristics of the Valar and Maiar from Foster's Complete Guide to Middle Earth than dug them out of Tolkein's writings), never mind for any complicated myth system.

On one hand, I learned classical mythology from Bullfinch, and Scandinavian from Padraic Colum's The Children of Odin. But on the other hand, the Theogony and the Elder and Younger Eddas are pretty compendious.

When the Silmarillion finally came out, it opened with the Ainulindale, which spelled out everything about the Valar in just a few pages. Though I can't compare that with Foster, whom I've never looked at.