Which skills are worh raising really high?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Assuming a fairly high point-value game, which skills do we think are worth investing lots of points in?

Generally speaking, we see diminishing returns after the 12-14 range unless there are frequently large negative modifiers. So, I was trying to figure out what skills might be worth the extra juice to put skills up to 25 or 30 or higher.

Ritual Magic seems like the most obvious choice. If we're using that magic system, many spells have prerequisite count of 10 and getting skill to 20 has real benefits.

Weapon skills can also clearly benefit. In melee, there are options and there's your parry. In ranged combat, there's range.

So, what else is worth having a skill of 25+‽

Any skill that can act as a cap on your combat skills, assuming it'll see use. Thus Freefall and the various Environment Suit skills, Riding, and Driving are all likely to be useful at the same level as your primary combat skill(s).

It's somewhat embarrassing finding your hyper-lethal assassin now has an effective skill with their weapons of maybe 12 because the other side cut the gravity.

And then there are the skill used for inventions. Unless the character is a gadgeteer (and not all campaigns will allow those advantages) they'll probably be working with huge penalties, so massive skill levels will be really useful - you really, really want your chance of success to be higher than your chance of a critical failure, at an absolute minimum.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

If it's not super expensive, Diplomacy is worth getting to 20 for the automatic +2 to any reaction roll.

But if that's all you want it for, +2 Charisma is likely to be much cheaper. However, Diplomacy is a hugely useful influence skill - you can use it in almost any situation where influence can be used at all, and it's rather safer than other influence skills. If you have the points to counter it being harder than the others it's absolutely worth the investment, even without that 'free' +2 to reactions.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by khorboth

What about taking less time? Lockpicking usually takes 1 minute. I don't remember where rules for taking less time are off the top of my head, but it seems like this is the sort of thing where deliberate penalties would come in to play. Same with computer hacking while the bad guys are approaching or tactics or... whatnot.

Lockpicking is odd - it has its own time reduction rules - for every point of success it takes 5s off the base one minute time. As the general rule is -1 per 10% time reduction, Lockpicking gives slightly less effect but without the need to gamble your success chance.

[edk926]

If you are using the low-tech crafting perks, Armoury and Smith would be well worth boosting really high.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

If it's not super expensive, Diplomacy is worth getting to 20 for the automatic +2 to any reaction roll.

I have hated that ridiculous rule since forever. It's banned in my games and most of my group does as well.

[Eric Funk]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Assuming a fairly high point-value game, which skills do we think are worth investing lots of points in?

Generally speaking, we see diminishing returns after the 12-14 range unless there are frequently large negative modifiers. So, I was trying to figure out what skills might be worth the extra juice to put skills up to 25 or 30 or higher.

Ritual Magic seems like the most obvious choice. If we're using that magic system, many spells have prerequisite count of 10 and getting skill to 20 has real benefits.

Weapon skills can also clearly benefit. In melee, there are options and there's your parry. In ranged combat, there's range.

So, what else is worth having a skill of 25+‽

Greetings!

Firstly I will suggest the optimum minimum is 16. It makes 6 or less (~10%)a critical success while a 17 a normal failure. The former for regular magic means no energy cost... (p.M7). It is also the limit for RuleOf16 for resistances (p.349). From a player point of view any roll the GM makes in secret might also be a good candidate (such as Search skill) to increase to 16+...

I will suggest that even 40 or so for weapon skills is not enough due to penalties. Consider against a smallish (SM-1) foe a warrior employs a Deceptive Attack (-14 to skill for -7 to foe defense) with targeting eye/chinks/etc (-9) for penalties of -24 to skill! (Keeping the target roll at 16+ to maximise critical success)... That is not counting penalties for rapid strikes, close combat, footing, being on fire, etc...


Vs. Contested skills I agree. My party's wizard managed to reverse pickpocket an armed grenade info a foe's pocket while said foe was distracted by an angry dwarf in heavy armour...


Acrobatics for Acrobatic Dodges as well as for Roll With Blow (MA87).

Lockpicking also note that lock difficulty can go from +5 to -10, so skill25 for an entry specialist would not be out of the ordinary.... (DF:Exploits82). Traps, Veterinary often have high penalties as well.

Merchant at 20+ doubly helps for its +2 to reaction rolls as well being a contest with the vendor.

In general most discovery/observation skills (and Information Spells) the greater your degree of success the more the GM will tell you what you learn so having skill 20+ you are more likely to have "success by 10+". (I was just reading some modules and NPCs being willing to divulge details fits here too)

You might also look at non-combat Techniques which could be worth buying up for specific uses such as "Set Trap" (B223) or in Martial Arts such as Quick Mount (MA78) or Acrobatic Stand (MA65).

[khorboth]

Originally Posted by Eric Funk

Firstly I will suggest the optimum minimum is 16.....

I will suggest that even 40...

You are clearly playing much higher point-value games than me. I have never seen a skill hit 40, and precious few in the 30s.

For characters without superpowers, 500 points is really high in my group. And 250-350 is much more common.

But it sounds like you're having fun. Don't let me put a damper on it.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by khorboth

You are clearly playing much higher point-value games than me. I have never seen a skill hit 40, and precious few in the 30s. For characters without superpowers, 500 points is really high in my group. And 250-350 is much more common.

Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to hearing D&Ders in gaming clubs boasting about how pitilessly unstoppable their characters were, in the "Yeah! We went to Hell, and we TRASHED it! We turned all the devils into our BITCHES, and then we killed SATAN and took his STUFF!" camp.

The concept of Skill-40 being "not enough" for just about anything short of "Let's see if I can hit that mountaintop there on the horizon with an arrow" boggles my mind.

[RyanW]

A skill of 12 is a good chance of success, 14 excellent, and 16 nearly perfect. Anything beyond that is either to soak up penalties, increase margin of success (including contests), or reach a threshold (like spell energy/time reduction, or Diplomacy's 20+ bonus).

Edit: Out of curiosity, I looked back through my files and one of my old characters that I have saved had two skills at 18. None of the others had even a single skill higher than 17.

[Eric Funk]

Originally Posted by khorboth

You are clearly playing much higher point-value games than me. I have never seen a skill hit 40, and precious few in the 30s.

For characters without superpowers, 500 points is really high in my group. And 250-350 is much more common.

But it sounds like you're having fun. Don't let me put a damper on it.

Well,
[20] Guns DX+5
[1] Weapon Bond +1

Weapon Balanced +1
Hand-matched Ammo +2 Acc, Fine Ammo (acc)+1

Aim+2
Scope+3
very Fine Weapon Acc +7

= 32 effective skill...

Add magic such as Accuracy (+2 on ammo is available for only 100$/bullet) you can get to effective skill 38...



I admit for melee it is less easy, but for specific techniques high levels are still achievable:


[6] Disarming Technique at StafF+5 (MA70)
[0] Small racial template SM-1 (no cp cost). Foe is SM+3 giant : +4 to hit.
[16] Staff @DX+5
[1] Weapon Bond +1
[1] Shield skill --> rimmed shield gives +1 to disarm attempts (LowtechCompanion2)

Balanced +1
Sodegarami/Sasumata hook staff (MA229) (no -2 to disarming as it is done by its hook)

Evaluate +2

=skill 29

Then add a magical weapon...