Spheres of Exchange

[Zeta Blaze]

Originally Posted by Sindri

I seem to have misplaced my memory of European Jews acting as a third party pathway of exchange for a society using spheres of exchange.

I think he means as social analogs to the half-orc in the "These people tend to do business that others don't want to do or can't. They may not produce anything, and others don't understand the work they do well. Because of their position (or lack thereof), they can become wealthy for their station. Unfortunately, they lack social protections of other classes, generally live in ghetos (even if they're nice places) and are frequently the targets of envy and violence. When a scapegoat is needed, this inexplicably well off people who no one knows much about...they get burned at the stake." sense not the short cut in spheres of exchange sense. If you need more dealers on that comparison look up usury in a medieval context.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Zeta Blaze

I think he means as social analogs to the half-orc in the "These people tend to do business that others don't want to do or can't. They may not produce anything, and others don't understand the work they do well. Because of their position (or lack thereof), they can become wealthy for their station. Unfortunately, they lack social protections of other classes, generally live in ghetos (even if they're nice places) and are frequently the targets of envy and violence. When a scapegoat is needed, this inexplicably well off people who no one knows much about...they get burned at the stake." sense not the short cut in spheres of exchange sense. If you need more dealers on that comparison look up usury in a medieval context.

I know what he means. I wasn't asking for examples of a minority providing services that the minority isn't allowed to do, those are trivially acquirable. I was asking about the the thing he had actually speculated on ""middle men minorities", [that] can freely engage in trade between the spheres". I'm not familiar with any stable examples of that in our world but there is certainly room for them to exist without me being familiar with them. In the examples of a permanent outside group being willing to buy and sell things without regard to the spheres they inhabit that I'm familiar with it's been a currency using society and either the spheres of exchange break down (because it's a pointless custom if people can just trade with the Europeans whenever intersphere trade is desired) or money gets relegated to a sphere and it isn't socially acceptable to buy or sell prestige items with money. In the half-orc example I would expect either the spheres to break down, it to become socially unacceptable to be part in sphere breaking trade, the half-orcs to adopt the sphere of exchange customs or the half-orcs to be driven away or killed.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sindri

I know what he means. I wasn't asking for examples of a minority providing services that the minority isn't allowed to do, those are trivially acquirable. I was asking about the the thing he had actually speculated on ""middle men minorities", [that] can freely engage in trade between the spheres". I'm not familiar with any stable examples of that in our world but there is certainly room for them to exist without me being familiar with them. In the examples of a permanent outside group being willing to buy and sell things without regard to the spheres they inhabit that I'm familiar with it's been a currency using society and either the spheres of exchange break down (because it's a pointless custom if people can just trade with the Europeans whenever intersphere trade is desired) or money gets relegated to a sphere and it isn't socially acceptable to buy or sell prestige items with money. In the half-orc example I would expect either the spheres to break down, it to become socially unacceptable to be part in sphere breaking trade, the half-orcs to adopt the sphere of exchange customs or the half-orcs to be driven away or killed.

Consider the medieval spheres of 'cash-right-now' and 'cash-over-time'. The two spheres were not freely tradeable for some but not all members of the society for quite some time.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Consider the medieval spheres of 'cash-right-now' and 'cash-over-time'. The two spheres were not freely tradeable for some but not all members of the society for quite some time.

It doesn't have the same societal consequences.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sindri

It doesn't have the same societal consequences.

As what? This is precisely the situation where nobody except the minority can freely exchange between these two spheres.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

As what? This is precisely the situation where nobody except the minority can freely exchange between these two spheres.

As the effects of intersphere trade on a society with the sort of spheres of exchange that we're actually talking about.

It can be illuminating to analyze odd things like lending money with interest through the lens of spheres of exchange but it's not a fully solid comparison. You could for example exchange cash over time for cash right now without dealing with minorities. You just couldn't exchange more cash over time for cash right now.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sindri

As the effects of intersphere trade on a society with the sort of spheres of exchange that we're actually talking about.

It can be illuminating to analyze odd things like lending money with interest through the lens of spheres of exchange but it's not a fully solid comparison. You could for example exchange cash over time for cash right now without dealing with minorities. You just couldn't exchange more cash over time for cash right now.

That's another interesting detail: that quantitative differences are in certain circumstances treated as qualitative.

[sgtcallistan]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Has anyone played a game in a setting whose economy incorporates a substantial degree of spheres of exchange? It occurs to me that it would make for an interesting variation on the standard form of trading campaigns.

Yes. Have played in a rare-magic celto-viking game in which the social stratification dictates what are acceptable gifts within spheres, and between spheres (rarer).

Examples; a king could insult a visiting bard by the giving of a gold ring, and not asking him to remain in the king's service (far too great a gift for news, stories and song while visiting).
Such a king would get a satire sung about him in other kingdoms, or (more likely) have the ring politely refused.

A prince (heir to a king, but not yet acclaimed the young king) can receive a sword from his father the king (a gift that requires loyalty and obedience in exchange), but could also require a skilled smith to make him one, permitting the prince to go adventuring; a spear alone would not fit his status.

The price agreed for forging the sword could be a simple as food and drink for the smith's family while he works (perhaps as long as a year, and obtained from the prince's father's tribute in exchange for his protection, placing the son in debt to his father again), or as complex as 'I need you to bring me iron from the land, from from the sea, and iron from the air'.

Essentially the prince is symbolically in the service of the smith, perhaps to remind the prince to respect his father's wishes.

The fantasy or fairytale cliches tend to come out, I find.

When a useful person of no status (a skilled but non-aligned huntsman or backwoodsman) finds himself in said prince's entourage, he gains a self-inflicted duty to help feed his friends and companions, which is balanced by 'friendship' from the prince, and travel on the prince's ship, welcome in his home lands and hall, etc. Patronage.

These links tend to increase or decrease with oaths sworn or trust given publicly, / failure, mistakes or betrayal.
Not quite in service to him, as even the peasant can give his word and be accepted by a noble.

The 'middle class' of bards, druids, some artisans and retired land-owning warriors tend to deal in cattle, lumber and other lasting produce other than food. Mead, cheese, a mill, etc. can sometimes come into this area, (in our game) as they can be preserved, and so can be 'tribute' items.

In the thinking noble's mind, the circle closes with the king's duty to protect and aid in times of need his 'peasants', as without them, all will starve.
A cruel or self-entitled noble might break this bond, and then he would not get spoken for when the year comes around for a new king.

All of these have happened in one form or another in our game, and characters tend to collect debts, promises to aid others, and a list of people welcome in their hall, who if they came seeking aid would have to be aided.

It's been a very successful game for several years now.

[Anders]

The Nordic countries had this for a long time with land. You couldn't sell land to anyone outside the family if anyone within the family wanted to buy it at a reasonable price.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Anders

The Nordic countries had this for a long time with land. You couldn't sell land to anyone outside the family if anyone within the family wanted to buy it at a reasonable price.

Seisin and similar practices were pretty common through the Middle Ages, but that's...not quite the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Spheres of exchange" refers fairly specifically to a practice of dividing goods into separate classes and regarding members of separate classes of goods as fundamentally incomparable. Trying to shove all restrictions on commerce (for example, ones like this and Medieval usury prohibitions, which focus on who's doing it, not the fundamental legitimacy of the transaction) under that rubric is torturing the concept.