SFOD-D ("Delta Force") template (critique?)

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It does. My father was a CWO4 in the Navy, and the understanding (as near as I could tell) was that the Warrants agreed to follow whatever orders even the most junior of officers gave, so long as the junior officers agreed not to give any. To put it another way, if an Ensign gave a Chief Warrant an order that the Warrant wasn't already planning to do, the Warrant would follow it... and a little while later, the Ensign would be having a private meeting with one of his senior officers about the different between authority and wisdom.

This, yes.

My understanding of GURPS Rank isn't that it is really hierarchical amongst those with the Rank. Rather it is a measure of their authority, or perhaps how many people work under them. It's quite abstract. This is why both very senior NCOs and very junior officers can be Rank 3, according to Basic Set, and why I thought I could justify some overlap there.

A CW5 certainly does have a lot of authority...

I could easily justify abstracting warrant grades even more, perhaps just to two grades- "Warrant Officer" and "Chief Warrant Officer" or something. I'm pretty sure that the USAF doesn't have warrant officers at all, and the USCG only uses three grades rather than the five the Army uses, etc., so this would be justifiable.

But, no, no warrant officer would ever be placed in a position of command over a commissioned officer, unless there are some very bizarre circumstances involved. However, as I mentioned, I have seen warrant officers in command positions. Usually these are maintenance or support units, like the maintenance platoon in an independent MI company, or the maintenance detachment in a Combat Support Hospital, etc. And even then it is usually because there are no commissioned officers available.

But occasional bizarre circumstances do pop up. As a major I have been the commander of a bird colonel. But the medical corps is just bizarre in many ways...

Explanation: the colonel was PROFIS to a Forward Surgical Team that I was commanding during a deployment. Doctors are sort of considered swappable modules in the medical corps, and it just happened to be the colonel's turn for an FST tour. He couldn't realistically assume command since he was only going to be there four months, and such individuals usually treasure the opportunity to be "just" a surgeon for a while, anyway. I had to have the TF-MED DCCS write his OER, though. But I could give him legal orders. Again- I'd have been stupid to make an issue of it if he resisted, but I could have.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Plus, Delta Selection is quite possibly the toughest selection program in the US Military.

Either Delta or SEALs. SF selection is pretty damn hardcore, but SEALs are worse and so is Delta.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Do senior US warrants actually have legal authority over junior commissioned officers? I quite understand that their greater experience would mean that a junior officer with sense would do what they said, but who has the legal power? I'm used to the idea that the commission always trumps the warrant.

Formally, legally, no they don't. Any howlingly incompetent lieutentant trumps even a CWO with infinite experience.

Informally... I guess that depends on how dumb the lieutenant is.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Unless of course you buy into the bit about Rank not directly corresponding to real-world rank, but rather being an expression of how many people work under you. In such a situation a Delta E-6 would be a professional trigger-puller essentially acting like a private and not in command of anyone, and thus technically Rank 0 with Courtesy Rank 2. But I don't like that for a number of reasons, and the Social Engineering: Pulling Rank supplement fixes the issue. Sort of.

I haven't bought Pulling Rank yet, but on that basis, some combination of regular Rank and Courtesy Rank makes perfect sense to me. Maybe not Rank 0+2, but then at least Rank 1+1 for the typical Master Sergeants who can't boss a lot of people around. What are your reasons for not liking that approach?

Additional SF, Delta or SEAL credibility can then be handled via Reputation. GURPS Special Ops says that Medal of Honour equates to a +4 Reputation, so Delta or SEAL can each be treated as a +3 Reputation, with SF as a +2. I'm not sure if Rangers warrant a +1 Rep.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I believe that someone (Haney?) released standards for Delta operators that suggests they all have extensive sniper training, but standards and methods can vary a lot in these kinds of organizations, so pick whatever you think is appropriate. Personally, I would expect that they are all at least sniper-qualified, simply because sniper training includes a whole bunch of skills that Deltas need, not just long-range shooting.

Spot on. Haney specifically mentions it in his book. During his time at OTC, all the Delta trainees spent time taking turns on Sniper and TOC training. But once the operators get to their assigned Troops, then they will end up being placed in a primary role like Sniper, Assaulter, Breacher, etc.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

True. I have a potential solution here, but I want to playtest it.

I would LOVE to see that, even if you haven't playtested it yet.

If you don't feel comfortable sharing it on forums, would you PM me?

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Eukie

I've seen several references to SFOD-D operators being divided into "sniper" and "assault" troops. Do you happen to have any references on whether this is right?

I'm pretty sure I read that in Beckwith's book, but I don't have it handy to verify. And it makes sense, at least at the time, since Beckwith based Delta off of the SAS, and that was how they divided their troops.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

These squadrons are based on the organization of the SAS "Sabre Squadron" and each contains 75 to 85 operators. Each sabre squadron is broken down into three troops—one recon/sniper troop, and two direct action/assault troops—that can operate either in teams or in groups as small as four to six men.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Either Delta or SEALs. SF selection is pretty damn hardcore, but SEALs are worse and so is Delta.

Not sure sure I believe that about BUD/S. It's gotten a lot of media attention, so we tend to know what BUD/S training looks like PHYSICALLY, but based on conversations I've had with members of the Special Operations community and the research I've done, AF PJ school is even harder than BUD/S PHYSICALLY.

When I said that Delta has one of the "toughest" selection processes in the US Military, I was speaking holistically about the difficulty of completing it. It's a good bet that it is very physically demanding, but the mental requirements, problem solving skills, and ability to think on your feet are all things that a candidate needs to have in spades to pass Delta selection.

Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of the specifics about Delta Selection, and what is out there is probably horribly out of date. Honestly, I would expect a lot of the pass/fail determination by the cadre is subjective, which would make actual comparison in Selection processes almost meaningless.

One thing I've seen bandied about too is that the washout rate for BUD/S is higher than that for Delta. We need to keep in mind what sort of candidates are going through these selection processes before we use that number to determine which is more difficult.

Just about anyone enlisting in the Navy can get into BUD/S. Most of the candidates are just out of A-school or Officer School, with little to no military experience. Your washout rate is going to be higher since your being selective about who gets to try out.

For Delta, OTOH, they are starting with experienced soldiers. From Wikipedia:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Since the 1990s, the Army has posted recruitment notices for the 1st SFOD-D. The Army, however, has never released an official fact sheet for the elite force. The recruitment notices in Fort Bragg's newspaper, Paraglide, refer to Delta Force by name, and label it "...the U.S. Army's special operations unit organized for the conduct of missions requiring rapid response with surgical application of a wide variety of unique special operations skills..." The notice states that applicants must be male, in the ranks of E-4 through E-8, have at least two and a half years of service remaining in their enlistment, be 21 years or older, and score high enough on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery test to attend a briefing to be considered for admission.

On top of that, most of the guys who try out for Delta are already experienced Special Operators. So Delta selection is washing out experienced SF and Rangers. BUD/S is washing out 18 and 19 year old Navy recruits.

Make of that what you will.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

One thing I've seen bandied about too is that the washout rate for BUD/S is higher than that for Delta.

Good point about who's in it. This thread has me reading Inside Delta Force (Haney's book) for the first time. The pass rate (which he says was the highest ever) for his group was about 7%. 163 started, 18 finished, and of those 18, 6 were ditched by the Commander's Board as unsuitable.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Not sure sure I believe that about BUD/S. It's gotten a lot of media attention, so we tend to know what BUD/S training looks like PHYSICALLY, but based on conversations I've had with members of the Special Operations community and the research I've done, AF PJ school is even harder than BUD/S PHYSICALLY.

It is hard to compare the different SOFs directly because, as you note, they have at least slightly different candidate pools and also emphasize different things in training. To be in SF you have to be the ultimate team player, to be a SEAL you have to be able to handle a lot of pain and discomfort, to be a PJ you have to be operating at peak physical and mental performance, etc.

I do believe that the PJ's have the worst pass rate of non-Tier 1 SOFs, contributing to the pipeline's nickname as "superman school". I think it is something like 10%, compared to ~20% for SEALs (on average). For Tier 1, Delta's pass rate is supposed to be ABSURDLY worse than DEVGRU, because the former is basically taking applications from the entire army while the latter is inviting carefully picked candidates who are already known to the selection committee by their service in SEALs (or other SOFs - DEVGRU does take some non-SEALs).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Good point about who's in it. This thread has me reading Inside Delta Force (Haney's book) for the first time. The pass rate (which he says was the highest ever) for his group was about 7%. 163 started, 18 finished, and of those 18, 6 were ditched by the Commander's Board as unsuitable.

That sounds about right. As I mentioned above, DEVGRU is recruiting from a base that already has a very similar operational profile, but Delta has no direct "lesser" parallel in the Army. They have to cast a very wide net to catch the few Delta-capable candidates out there, and as a result have to reject a LOT of people in the process.