SFOD-D ("Delta Force") template (critique?)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by acrosome

3.00 Junior Chief Warrant Officer
3.25 Chief Warrant Officer
3.50 Senior Chief Warrant Officer
3.00 Second Lieutenant
3.25 First Lieutenant
3.50 Captain

Do senior US warrants actually have legal authority over junior commissioned officers? I quite understand that their greater experience would mean that a junior officer with sense would do what they said, but who has the legal power? I'm used to the idea that the commission always trumps the warrant.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Do senior US warrants actually have legal authority over junior commissioned officers? I quite understand that their greater experience would mean that a junior officer with sense would do what they said, but who has the legal power? I'm used to the idea that the commission always trumps the warrant.

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=3003

An older, free take on Military Rank published way before Social Engineering came out.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Do senior US warrants actually have legal authority over junior commissioned officers? I quite understand that their greater experience would mean that a junior officer with sense would do what they said, but who has the legal power? I'm used to the idea that the commission always trumps the warrant.

It does. My father was a CWO4 in the Navy, and the understanding (as near as I could tell) was that the Warrants agreed to follow whatever orders even the most junior of officers gave, so long as the junior officers agreed not to give any. To put it another way, if an Ensign gave a Chief Warrant an order that the Warrant wasn't already planning to do, the Warrant would follow it... and a little while later, the Ensign would be having a private meeting with one of his senior officers about the different between authority and wisdom.

[Eukie]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It will vary depending on what era you are talking about, but it is likely that current Deltas spend as much time or more with pistols and assault rifles than anything else - sniper qualification is important but not something that most of them will be doing every mission. In short, I would say that Rifle and Pistol should be equal, with a smattering of points in other skills.

I've put Pistol and Rifle both to 17 on the worksheet on my computer now, I'm still not sure how I like it. Maybe I can bug Hans-Christian Vortisch into telling what level it "Hans-canonically" should be at.

Tactical Shooting recommends Targeted Attack (Guns (Rifle)/Skull) for short-range sharpshooting and Precision Aiming (Guns (Rifle)) for long-range sniping. The example given for Precision Aiming is a Delta Force sharpshooter with Guns (Rifle)-18 and Precision Aim (Guns (Rifle))-18, which seems to indicate that in trained snipers the two should be of roughly similar levels. (This costs 6 points). Maxing out Targeted Attack (Guns (Rifle)/Skull) costs 4 points, and maxing out Targeted Attack (Guns (Rifle)/Vitals) costs 2 points.

What I'm considering is simply to say that unspecified sniper training is to spend 6 points on any combination of Targeted Attack and Precision Aim with the Guns (Rifle) skill to the Vitals and Skull. While someone whose role is "being a sniper/sharpshooter" and regularly trains for this would have both Targeted Attacks maxed out and 6 points in Precision Aim.

I'm a bit uncertain if I should give Delta Force operators 12 points ("They're all trained snipers!"), 6 points ("They've all trained as snipers!"), or even less ("They're all trained as snipers... but not to the degree they're trained in short-distance rifle and pistol shooting.")

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Nope. Completely different training programs with completely different outcomes. Delta only has "Special Forces" in its title because it was founded and operated under the auspices of that command. SFQC is longer than Delta selection, but also has lower expectations of initial ability and covers a lot of things (languages, interpersonal skills, etc) that Deltas don't need while giving comparatively short shrift to others.

In what way is it wrong? Do SFOD-D not go through the SFQC? If they do, what happens during the MOS stage when everyone else gets an SF MOS? (...knowledge of that is very secret, isn't it?)

I based the MOSes on the assumption that Delta Force operators go through the normal SFQC, and I'm curious as to which part of that assumption is wrong.

Especially since I'm not sure if my local library has a copy of Inside Delta Force. :P

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Eukie

What I'm considering is simply to say that unspecified sniper training is to spend 6 points on any combination of Targeted Attack and Precision Aim with the Guns (Rifle) skill to the Vitals and Skull. While someone whose role is "being a sniper/sharpshooter" and regularly trains for this would have both Targeted Attacks maxed out and 6 points in Precision Aim.

I personally (not as a researcher or one-with-knowledge, but personally) favor this approach for highly skilled operators like this that are awesome but not interchangeable. Part of this is a function of skill maintenance - there are only so many hours in the day, and someone who spends the points on the equivalent of head-shots and precision aiming will not be spending it on CQB or pistol or other things.

The only thing I'd wonder for sniping is if TA makes sense. These guys don't specialize in hitting the head, and therefore they can ONLY hit the head, but rather hitting very small things period.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Eukie

I've put Pistol and Rifle both to 17 on the worksheet on my computer now, I'm still not sure how I like it. Maybe I can bug Hans-Christian Vortisch into telling what level it "Hans-canonically" should be at.

Pick whatever level you think is appropriate, but don't sell them short to fit some arbitrary point level. These guys are supposed to cost a lot of points, they are some of the most highly trained soldiers on the planet. Decide what is more important - running an X-point campaign, or running a Delta campaign.

I'm a bit uncertain if I should give Delta Force operators 12 points ("They're all trained snipers!"), 6 points ("They've all trained as snipers!"), or even less ("They're all trained as snipers... but not to the degree they're trained in short-distance rifle and pistol shooting.")

I believe that someone (Haney?) released standards for Delta operators that suggests they all have extensive sniper training, but standards and methods can vary a lot in these kinds of organizations, so pick whatever you think is appropriate. Personally, I would expect that they are all at least sniper-qualified, simply because sniper training includes a whole bunch of skills that Deltas need, not just long-range shooting.

In what way is it wrong? Do SFOD-D not go through the SFQC?

No, they do not. That is, SF operators can and do get into Delta, but if you come from some other unit then you will not go through SFQC just so you can be in Delta. That is to say, Delta training is a unique course that does not involve participation in any step of SF training.

If they do, what happens during the MOS stage when everyone else gets an SF MOS? (...knowledge of that is very secret, isn't it?)

Umm.... they don't do that either. You are again describing Special Forces training, and although Delta operates under the auspices of SF, they are a separate unit with a separate selection and training path.

Here is a simple way to think about it. Delta has a core set of requirements for operators and only about 6 months for selection and training (which are simultaneous). They select those people who, by dint of service in SF, Rangers, 10th Mountain, EOD, whatever, they think can be elevated to that level during those 6 months. Having selected, they train.

At the end of that 6 months, they take who they want and let the rest go. THEN they look at non-core requirements, the skill sets that not every man needs, but every squad or platoon or team needs. If they don't have those needs met (and they will, because they will have some medics, and EOD guys, and comms guys pass selection) then they will send people out for training to pick up those skills.

So, for example:

Glenn the Green Beret and Roger the Ranger are both tagged for Delta selection. They both sweat their way through, each struggling with some parts of the course and struggling a LOT with other parts. At the end, both pass. Glenn is already an 18D medic, so they figure he has enough skills to contribute and that the best thing is to get him operational. Roger, on the other hand, is more of a blank slate, and the team he is going to needs a comms expert... so Roger goes to comms school, and when he is done they decide to start him on pilot training as well, in parallel with his team workup - they always want a few people who can handle a plane if necessary. Perhaps after a year, they will send BOTH guys for some other training, maybe at a formal military program, perhaps something run by the CIA, FBI, or a private organization. Whatever works.

I based the MOSes on the assumption that Delta Force operators go through the normal SFQC, and I'm curious as to which part of that assumption is wrong.

All of it. Sorry.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I personally (not as a researcher or one-with-knowledge, but personally) favor this approach for highly skilled operators like this that are awesome but not interchangeable. Part of this is a function of skill maintenance - there are only so many hours in the day, and someone who spends the points on the equivalent of head-shots and precision aiming will not be spending it on CQB or pistol or other things.

Personally, I agree - I think they all go through sniper school, but in practice only a few will spend substantial time really honing those skills. As you noted, only so many hours in a day.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The only thing I'd wonder for sniping is if TA makes sense. These guys don't specialize in hitting the head, and therefore they can ONLY hit the head, but rather hitting very small things period.

I could see that. It makes sense for Pistol, might not for Rifle... except that GURPS does not distinguish between sniper rifles and assault rifles in skills, so they still would have TA for rifle so that they could make targeted attacks at closer ranges with assault rifles.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Personally, I agree - I think they all go through sniper school, but in practice only a few will spend substantial time really honing those skills. As you noted, only so many hours in a day.

Right. I bet they all achieve a level of proficiency shooting that's pretty amazing, but then develop the skills needed. I got some business training with an SFOD-D guy as part of the McChrystal Group, and he was really interesting to talk with. I gave him a copy of Tactical Shooting, and I was torn. I really (!!) wanted to grill him, but I respect what those guys do, did, and go through too much to dredge (or potentially violate security stuff) up their memories too much.

I could see that. It makes sense for Pistol, might not for Rifle... except that GURPS does not distinguish between sniper rifles and assault rifles in skills, so they still would have TA for rifle so that they could make targeted attacks at closer ranges with assault rifles.

True. I have a potential solution here, but I want to playtest it.

[Eukie]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

No, they do not. That is, SF operators can and do get into Delta, but if you come from some other unit then you will not go through SFQC just so you can be in Delta. That is to say, Delta training is a unique course that does not involve participation in any step of SF training.

Then random websites on the Internet lied to me! Would you believe that!? :P

(Oh well, at least I can keep the packages for a Green Beret template.)

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Personally, I agree - I think they all go through sniper school, but in practice only a few will spend substantial time really honing those skills. As you noted, only so many hours in a day.

I've seen several references to SFOD-D operators being divided into "sniper" and "assault" troops. Do you happen to have any references on whether this is right?

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Eukie

Then random websites on the Internet lied to me! Would you believe that!? :P

I am shocked. Shocked I say!

FWIW, no one has a clear picture, and it is likely that the organization changes frequently enough that what is publicly known now has more to do with Delta 20 years ago than it does with Delta today.

Originally Posted by Eukie

(Oh well, at least I can keep the packages for a Green Beret template.)

Yes, and it is not impossible that some Deltas might go through those schools anyway - they won't create a new school when one already exists. As an example of this, realize that SEAL medics actually go through the SF 18D training course - it made more sense than creating their own program.

Originally Posted by Eukie

I've seen several references to SFOD-D operators being divided into "sniper" and "assault" troops. Do you happen to have any references on whether this is right?

None that are necessarily more reliable than anything else, but DEVGRU operates the same way so I suspect that it is true. Realize that there is a distinction between unit capability and individual capability - figure that the recon troops are all practicing* snipers and probably spend 75% of their group training time on recon/sniper scenarios and 25% on assault scenarios**, while with the assault troops maybe only 25% are practicing snipers and they spend only 25% of their group training time on recon/sniper scenarios.

*: As mentioned before, I think they are ALL snipers by training, but only some of them actually spend substantial time practicing that skill set.
**: The sniper groups still need to be ready to assault, and the assault groups still need to handle the odd recon or sniper task.