Independent Income at later TL stages

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Independent Income has issue even there - it scales oddly with TL, and below TL5 you can't live off even 20 levels of II at the standard of living for the Status expected for your Wealth. At TL5+ you can, and it costs fewer points with each TL. Thus the value of the advantage goes up greatly with TL.

I don't have time for a deep dive into the rules, but I would be tempted to say that a perk [1] means you have to work significantly less (or more flexibly) than the default in your setting, and an advantage worth [5] means you only have to work a few hours a week writing letters to mommy dearest, standing in line to collect your pension, managing royalties with your agent, going drinking with the generous patron who gave you a sinecure, etc. GURPS Worminghall actually has something similar to Brett / Agemegos' preferred solution, Average wealth means a student is supported by their parents in term but has to work in the summer.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Independent Income has issue even there - it scales oddly with TL, and below TL5 you can't live off even 20 levels of II at the standard of living for the Status expected for your Wealth. At TL5+ you can, and it costs fewer points with each TL. Thus the value of the advantage goes up greatly with TL.

That's called "Cost of living rules are busted".

[Donny Brook]

O

Originally Posted by Rupert

The character has been in play for years. They've accumulated a pile of cash and want to buy Independent Income. The expectation is that this would be justified in-game by them taking some of that money and investing it in long-term investments of the sort you can't readily liquidate.


That's something that's not ideal, but it's not the main issue.

And yet there's a small box in Low-Tech Companion I on how much interest a bank run by a religion (a fairly common set up historically) would charge, and how much buying a letter of credit from a widespread bank so you could move money to another place would cost.

One of the Spaceships books discusses payment plans for spaceship purchase (and buying them with points, for that matter).

This shows that GURPS does deal in financial matters, and it does have equivalences for points and money.

It also unfortunately has a system where monetary traits, listed levels and wealth, listed incomes, and listed costs of living don't play well together. On top of that, it gives no help in the matter of how much it might cost to buy II.

It costs 1 CP for each level of II. If you want the in game justification for that to match realistic interest rates, use an online calculator to give you the necessary capital outlay. If you don't like that result, change it.

below TL5 you can't live off even 20 levels of II at the standard of living for the Status expected for your Wealth.

Standard of living expectations are based on Status not Wealth.

Did anyone ever promise that II was supposed to be sufficient for any given cost of living? Why do you see it as an issue if you can't? It's not the only way of getting money.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Standard of living expectations are based on Status not Wealth.

Except that Wealthy and above give bonuses to Status.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Standard of living expectations are based on Status not Wealth.

And I allowed for that in my statement.

Did anyone ever promise that II was supposed to be sufficient for any given cost of living? Why do you see it as an issue if you can't? It's not the only way of getting money.

That's not the point. The point is that it's ability to do so changes radically across Tech Levels.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The point is that it's ability to do so changes radically across Tech Levels.

Why is that a problem?

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Why is that a problem?

Its plausible that you need different amounts of capital to support a given lifestyle in different societies. But from a story perspective, 'my character can pay expenses and has some disposable income without working full time' should be of similar utility regardless of setting, so the point cost should be similar. Just like its easier for an English speaker to learn Italian than Russian, but all languages cost the same in GURPS because in principle they offer the same utility and because GURPS is an adventure game not a modern language teaching game.

This is one of the ways in which mixing up the gamist concept of points and the economic concept of money leads to problems in these rules.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Why is that a problem?

Because it means that II's core function, to provide income that you don't need to work for, costs more at lower TLs. I see no good reason for this. How much II pays out is attached to starting wealth, not expected pay, and starting cash scales faster with TL than expected income (which is reasonable). The result is that if II's core function is, in fact, to let PCs not work it fails at low TLs (and allows them easy wealth accumulation at high TLs).

I suspect that fixing cost of living vs income scaling over TLs would allow this aspect of II to be cleaned up fairly easily.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Rupert

if II's core function is, in fact, to let PCs not work

No, it isn't. Independent Income's core function is to increase the character's monthly income without requiring significant work for it. It is not about trying to meet your Cost of Living. You might use it for that, but you might also use it to have extra money to buy more adventuring equipment, or to have extra money to bribe characters you meet on adventures. It's about having extra money, nothing more.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Because it means that II's core function, to provide income that you don't need to work for, costs more at lower TLs.

You've said that backwards now a few times and I wondrr if it's conributing to some kind of confusion. It doesn't cost more at lower tech levels, it pays less.

The result is that if II's core function is, in fact, to let PCs not work it fails at low TLs (and allows them easy wealth accumulation at high TLs).

As Stormcrow points out , that "if" is where your analysis breaks down. It seems like you want a trait that does something different than II. Of course you don't need to have a character trait to get an in-game income, but if you want plot protection, maybe you could consider buying a sufficiently large investment portfolio as Signature Gear.