Kama and judo

[Jeminai]

i have been recently introduced to the classical japanese weapon of the Kamas in my Judo class and have learned a few techniques where classic judo throws are accomplished by hooking under a joint (armpit or neck for instance) and completing a throw normally.

In the rules for Judo skill and throws, damage is pretty straight forward and I assume most of this damage is received from the slamming of the thrown victim crashing into the ground. Of course I realize that some damage may be from the wrenching of a limb during the throw but I figure the rules do not really take this into account unless a specific skill was used to wrench the limb or engage an arm a leg lock first.

When using the kama to throw how should the skill roll to initiate the throw be handled? Should it just be a judo based Kama skill roll? Should there be a penalty to a Judo skill roll for lack of fine motor manipulation? Should it just be a kama roll with close combat modifiers?

What about the damage from the throw? Should it just be turned into Cutting? Should the cutting damage be separate from the actual Judo damage of slamming into the ground?

thanks in advance.

[Phantasm]

This seems like a prime contender of an example of the Weapon Adaptation (Axe/Mace to Judo) Perk (Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 8), allowing you to use a weapon commonly used with the Axe/Mace skill (the Kama, uses the Sickle stats) to perform Judo techniques (including Judo Throw, the base use of the skill; don't have a page ref from Martial Arts for that as a technique, but I know it's there).

The damage from the throw should probably be both the kama's cutting from its hook and the crushing from the landing.

[Skarg]

Jeminai, it'd be interesting to get your input on how this seems to work to you from your class experience. How much force is applied using the kama during a kama throw, compared to if you were swinging the kama simply to cut?

And, for learning and using the kama this way, does it seem to be a judo maneuver (you are basically doing a judo throw while holding a sickle) or a kama skill (how good you are at throwing with the kama is related to how good you are fighting with the kama as a sickle), or some combination (i.e. the roll could be based on the lower of judo or kama, at a penalty, but raise-able as a maneuver).

I have a guess about how I'd make it, but I've know neither judo nor kama, so your input (or from others with experience with them) would be good to have.

[thulben]

Any time I've used a weapon to apply a throw or joint lock, it's because the weapon allowed me to use a longer moment arm in the lever that I'm using to apply the technique, thus either making the technique easier to apply or more devastating with the same amount of effort. Even when that weapon is bladed. So while the blade might add some cutting damage, that's not (in my experience) why one applies a technique with a weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

When using the kama to throw how should the skill roll to initiate the throw be handled? Should it just be a judo based Kama skill roll? Should there be a penalty to a Judo skill roll for lack of fine motor manipulation? Should it just be a kama roll with close combat modifiers?

What about the damage from the throw? Should it just be turned into Cutting? Should the cutting damage be separate from the actual Judo damage of slamming into the ground?

thanks in advance.

There are ways to handle this type of thing in Technical Grappling, if you want to use those rules.

You can use your kama to perform a parry or an armed grapple in either the Basic or TG systems. With the Perk "Judo Throw can follow a Parry with Kama" you can then perform the actual throw; you can also go the whole nine yards (and you probably should) with "Judo Throw defaults to Kama skill" which is what I have used to allow a Judo Throw with an Axe/Mace, but NOT the unarmed version of the throw.

With TG, the control points you score with the armed grapple can be turned into cutting damage. I'd probably resolve these as two attacks - a cut to the grappled body part followed by a separate Judo Throw. This would be a good candidate for AoA(Double) or a trained Combination (check Martial Arts for this variation on improvable Rapid Strike).

[Jeminai]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Jeminai, it'd be interesting to get your input on how this seems to work to you from your class experience. How much force is applied using the kama during a kama throw, compared to if you were swinging the kama simply to cut?

In my experience using a staff, stick or a some stiff object to apply a lock or throw is easier. The weapon creates more leverage and WAY more pain, (much faster) forcing the recipient to comply with more... "enthusiasm". The wooden kama blade is very thin compared to a staff so the pressure that it exerts (and the subsequent pain felt) is very high.

When the kama digs into the joint from a throw, there is a LOT of leverage in it. There is a great deal more force causing the blade to really dig in, instead of just slicing or flensing (which are other common uses for the kama). As for the skill to use it to throw, that comes from the judo side. you still need to have good foot position and hip movement to complete the throw or it won't happen. Also, doing the throw in a way that prevents an escape or reversal is from the unarmed side and the kama makes this easier but not automatic. Good throwing skill means great kama throw. Great Kama skill may not mean very good throwing skill at all.

The bladed part is not something I can practice with of course but I'm pretty sure that when it hooks under the chin or on the opposite side of the neck the recipient will enthusiastically go with the throw to prevent his trachea or carotid artery from being sliced wide open. The problem is that it doesn't matter, they are getting cut and severely at that.