[MA] Decompressing Historical Martial arts styles

[Phantasm]

That most movie swordfights involve a lot of flynning is another aspect; they're looking for what looks good on screen (Rapier Art), not really going for historical accuracy.

(Plus, flynning is fun to do!)

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by aesir23

My understanding is that the vast majority of German masters were in the Lichtenauer tradition or lineage, but I'm no expert. If you have suggestions for other styles, I'd love to hear them. Codex Wallerstein and Tolhoffer might be possibilities.

That I can't say, because its not my specialty, but I have seen it hanging like a ghost over people who train after early German sources.

Originally Posted by aesir23

Really? That may be true, but it's definitely a smaller community than those doing unarmored longsword.

Sure, but someone who wants to get started just has to attend WMAW or Pennsic or one of a long list of jousts and deeds of arms with an Internet presence and talk to the right people (quite a few people who drifted into living history or historical martial arts got their starts in the SCA, so they use Pennsic as an excuse to meet old friends). The community in North America is small and unevenly distributed, but there are people all over the continent and most of them write to each other and travel a lot. Its not something to get involved in lightly (putting a first kit together requires endless research and labour and money, and improving it and keeping it maintained requires more; travelling to train with or fight other people costs yet more; and injuries are pretty common) but it does not require travelling to Borneo to find a lost tribe and persuading them to adopt you either.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

One thing I would like to know is why movies always do one-hand rapier or small sword style? Has any movie tried doing a fight scene with a cloak or dagger in the off-hand? That would be neat to see.

Yeah, this bother's me too. It seems like choreographers don't know what to do with sheilds either--like in the duel in 13th Warrior, the viking warriors start with shields but end up fighting with viking swords in two-hands (which would have been impossible considering the unusually short grips of historical viking swords.

The one movie that makes fighting look awesome is Troy. But there's no equivalent I know of for main gauche or cloak.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Its not something to get involved in lightly (putting a first kit together requires endless research and labour and money, and improving it and keeping it maintained requires more; travelling to train with or fight other people costs yet more; and injuries are pretty common) but it does not require travelling to Borneo to find a lost tribe and persuading them to adopt you either.

Fair enough, I'll adjust the write-up appropriately.

[Badmash]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

One thing I would like to know is why movies always do one-hand rapier or small sword style? Has any movie tried doing a fight scene with a cloak or dagger in the off-hand? That would be neat to see.

Of course one explanation is simply that it is easier to find a sport fencer for the stuntman. But sport fencing isn't much like a real fight because of it's unusually artificial rules(which is one reason I like Mariel Zagunis; sabre allows the edge).

Richard Lester's Musketeers movies in the 70s had swordplay with both cloaks and daggers in the left hand. The fights were choreographed by William Hobbs, and I think he did a great job.

The actors did a lot of their own stunts, and fight scenes.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Badmash

Richard Lester's Musketeers movies in the 70s had swordplay with both cloaks and daggers in the left hand. The fights were choreographed by William Hobbs, and I think he did a great job.

The actors did a lot of their own stunts, and fight scenes.

Really? I've seen plenty of movies with a shield in the off-hand, none with a cloak and dagger. It would be interesting to see.

I wish I went to the Renaissance Faire or the SCA once in a while now that I think of it. But I'm to much of a recluse.

Do either of these ever broadcast online?

[Polydamas]

If I had more rule books handy I might try writing up Fiore's abrazare, daga, and spada into a style.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Really? I've seen plenty of movies with a shield in the off-hand, none with a cloak and dagger. It would be interesting to see.

I wish I went to the Renaissance Faire or the SCA once in a while now that I think of it. But I'm to much of a recluse.

Do either of these ever broadcast online?

Yes (Pennsic even has a newspaper). You also might like duello.tv (I don't remember if their stage combat program has any videos yet).

After all, people who go to geeky events are likely to also like cameras and the internet!

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

If I had more rule books handy I might try writing up Fiore's abrazare, daga, and spada into a style.


Yes (Pennsic even has a newspaper). You also might like duello.tv (I don't remember if their stage combat program has any videos yet).

After all, people who go to geeky events are likely to also like cameras and the internet!

Cool! Thanks for the tip.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

If I had more rule books handy I might try writing up Fiore's abrazare, daga, and spada into a style.

I'd love it if you gave it a try anyway!

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I'd love it if you gave it a try anyway!

This is a quick sketch, but my copies of Martial Arts and the Basic Set are in another city, so I would not want to trust it. It does not assume any other rules, and its a conservative writeup (Techniques are only included if the real-life moves which they represent are common in the manuals).

Armizare (“armed combat”) [5 points]
Skills: Brawling, Judo, and any two of Knife, Broadsword, Two-Handed Sword, Spear, or Polearm
Optional Skills: Lance, Riding (Horse)
Other Traits: Combat Reflexes, Eidetic Memory with the memory palace limitation, Fit, Languages (Italian, Latin), Odious Personal Habit (chip on his shoulder, trash-talking, excessive self-confidence, babbling about your hobby, ...), Artist (Drawing), Public Speaking, Philosophy (Neo-Aristotelian), Writing. Revivalists are likely to have different advantages, disadvantages, and quirks, and may have Games (WMA tournament rules) or Current Affairs (WMA gossip) and are less likely to know Italian.

Techniques: Arm Lock, Close Combat, Counterattack, whatever you use for striking with the bottom of the fist, whatever you use to grapple weapons or weapon arms and take the weapon away, ...

Perks: I would need a copy of Martial Arts to hand for that. Whatever you use to reduce the penalties for Judo while encumbered.

Rules Options to Know: Beat, Cross Parry (Judo or Knife), Defensive Grip, Riposte, Pummelling, Slip and Sidestep, Thrown Weapon (Sword), Feint, Kick, Improvised Weapons for striking and grappling, Grapples with Weapons, any unarmed technique which makes you wince when you read it, ...

Cinematic Abilities: Parrying really well when you have a moment to prepare (Enhanced Parry with Preparation Required?), parrying multiple opponents at once, striking with incredible power, inhuman resistance to knockdown and knockback (Fortituto), amazing Will and similar traits (Audatia), something for Prudentia, incredible speed and reaction time (Celeritas)

Fiore Furlano dei Liberi taught a holistic system for life-and-death combat with knightly weapons at the end of the fourteenth century. His manuals stand out for their clear design, humorous text, and firm vision of how to approach a fight. Fiore prefers to take direct action to remove the opponent's most dangerous weapon (whether beating an attack aside, locking an arm, or grappling a weapon) then take them out of the fight with a lock, throw, break, or strike. He insists on teaching ways of moving which work with or without armour, unarmed or with a variety of weapons. Almost all that is known of his life and teaching comes from a series of illustrated manuscripts which he composed between roughly 1404 and 1410.

Fiore's manuscripts became popular with the growing western martial arts movement around the year 2000. Most modern revivalists focus on some parts of his art. The techniques with dagger and longsword on foot are the most commonly studied, followed by bare hands, armoured combat on foot, improvised weapons, and combat on horseback. In 2015, about a thousand people train according to his manuals in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, and northern Italy, a few dozen of them owning armour or riding horses.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Armizare (“armed combat”) [5 points]

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Techniques: Arm Lock, Close Combat, Counterattack, whatever you use for striking with the bottom of the fist, whatever you use to grapple weapons or weapon arms and take the weapon away, ...

Would Armed Grappling (Two-Handed Sword) be appropriate? Pommel strikes simply use Brawling or Hammerfist. Two-Handed Pommel Strikes may require us to invent a rule (or just use Two-Handed Punch with a damage bonus). Sounds like Disarming (Judo) is also called for. I think Feint (Two-Handed Sword) is probably called for as well. Maybe Bind (Two-Handed Sword) if you include the appropriate perk (below).

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Perks: I would need a copy of Martial Arts to hand for that. Whatever you use to reduce the penalties for Judo while encumbered.

The Perks given for Longsword Fighting in MA goes as follows: Armor Familiarity (Judo), Grip Mastery (Longsword), Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon Defaults to Two-Handed Sword), and Sure-Footed (Uneven)

Most of those seem appropriate to Fiore's style. What do you think?