[MA] Decompressing Historical Martial arts styles

[Cheomesh]

I think this is a fine idea! It's similar to what I started doing on my blog with some military combatives styles a little while back. I had considered doing this exact exercise, starting with Smallsword. My intent had been to spool it out into three directions: Early French (1680s-1730s), Hope's New Method, and Late Smallsword (19th Century). Unfortunately I've been caught up in all kinds of things these last few months so I haven't had time to do my usual analysis of styles and my characteristically long-winded writeups. If I get home at a reasonable time this evening, though, I think I'll put some new efforts forward, so at least you've got more content to read into.

Cheers!

M.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

If I get home at a reasonable time this evening, though, I think I'll put some new efforts forward, so at least you've got more content to read into.

Please do! I'd love to see what you come up with.

[Cheomesh]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Please do! I'd love to see what you come up with.

It may be a bit; I'm expecting a newborn here this week (yay. :| ) However, it would motivate me to get back to reading sources. I think I'll go back and re-read one early source and one 19th century source and give it a breakdown. However, it's worth noting that my previous works on the subject have been different in approach than how GURPS Martial Arts does it. One of the ways I try to make subschools / individual instructors different from the "common core" is by fiddling with Techniques and "proscribed" maneuvers.

Though choice of maneuvers aren't really improvable mechanics that show up on a character sheet, they are something that Martial Arts highlights in style entries, and in my opinion go a long way to helping express the style (perhaps just as much if not more than skills/techniques).

In case you haven't seen my earlier stuff, here's what I've done (for example on how my approach is different from MA)

US Army Combatives, 1992

Chinese Republican Army Xingyiquan

L.I.N.E.

It works best for things that have a "cannon" handbook to refer to - perfect with Combatives, since military leaders tend to be "by the book".

M.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

In case you haven't seen my earlier stuff, here's what I've done (for example on how my approach is different from MA)

I have seen it before. We had a brief discussion once about Xingyiquan.

Have you taken a look at 19th century military saber manuals like this one? It seems like the sort of thing that's up your alley.

[Cheomesh]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I have seen it before. We had a brief discussion once about Xingyiquan.

Have you taken a look at 19th century military saber manuals like this one? It seems like the sort of thing that's up your alley.

Oh, duh. That was a bit ago. I have seen the horse guard's manual - I think I read it back to back during my time delving into Hutton. If you want to see some really late sabre stuff, try the 1895 manual. It was...a special case.

Going to see what I can make of it all when I've a time. Thanks!

M.

[aesir23]

Harnischfechten 3

Harnischfetchen is German for "armored fighting" and is used to describe techniques in Longsword fencing that assume both combatants are wearing plate armor.

Many masters include some Harnischfetchen alongside unarmored fencing (blossfetchen) in their manuals, including Johannes Liechtenaur (the father of German longsword fencing). Perhaps the most complete and important body of Harnischfetchen techniques comes from Hans Talhoffer, who published five fetchbuch in the mid 15th century.

Harnischfetchen relies heavily on grappling and throwing your opponent, and on using the Defensive Grip to more accurately target chinks in the armor, including the eye slots and arm-pits.

While many historical students would learn Harnisfetchen alongside their unarmored styles, modern students of HEMA will find it much more difficult to find a school that teaches this art.

Skills: Judo, Two-Handed Sword

Techniques: Armed Grapple (Two-Handed Sword), Ground Fighting (Two-Handed Sword or Judo), Sweep (Judo), Targeted Attack (Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Eye Chinks), Targeted Attack (Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Vitals Chinks), Targeted Attack (Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Torso Chinks)

Cinematic Skills:Immovable Stance, Power Blow, Push

Cinematic Techniques: None

Perks: Power Grappling, Special Set-Up (Judo Throw from Armed Grapple), Style Adaptation (Early German Longsword), Technique Adaptation (Targeted Attacks)

Optional Traits:
Skills: Knife, Sumo Wrestling

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Please share thoughts on the following hypothetical break-up of Longsword Fighting:

Early Italian Longsword (Fiore)

Early German Longsword (Lichtenhaur, etc...)

Late German Longsword (Joachim Meyer)

Well, we have no idea whether Fiore's art was particularly Italian, or particularly typical. Some people have opinions, but they have never published formal written arguments. So why not just call it Armizare?

The early German material probably contains multiple styles too even if people today often use one source to full in the gaps in another. I don't know it well enough to say what they are.

Its not so hard to find people practicing historical armoured combat, although they move in their own circles, and the need to invest $5-10k in a harness is a barrier.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The early German material probably contains multiple styles too even if people today often use one source to full in the gaps in another. I don't know it well enough to say what they are.

My understanding is that the vast majority of German masters were in the Lichtenauer tradition or lineage, but I'm no expert. If you have suggestions for other styles, I'd love to hear them. Codex Wallerstein and Tolhoffer might be possibilities.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Its not so hard to find people practicing historical armoured combat, although they move in their own circles, and the need to invest $5-10k in a harness is a barrier.

Really? That may be true, but it's definitely a smaller community than those doing unarmored longsword.

[jason taylor]

One thing I would like to know is why movies always do one-hand rapier or small sword style? Has any movie tried doing a fight scene with a cloak or dagger in the off-hand? That would be neat to see.

Of course one explanation is simply that it is easier to find a sport fencer for the stuntman. But sport fencing isn't much like a real fight because of it's unusually artificial rules(which is one reason I like Mariel Zagunis; sabre allows the edge).

[Phil Masters]

I suspect also that it's a heck of a lot easier to give the cameraman (and the viewer) just one hand and one blade to keep in shot and in focus.