Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

[Rasna]

According to GURPS Martial Arts, p. 100:

DEFENSIVE ATTACK
This represents a cautious “probing” attack made from a full guard position, such as a jab with a thrusting weapon (including a fist or foot) or a quick, light tap with a swung one. The fighter must use a ready melee attack. He gets -2 damage or -1 damage per die, whichever is worse, but enjoys improved active defenses – see below. If he attempts to grab or grapple, his target gets +1 to defend.
- Movement: Step. Movement can come before or after the attack.
- Active Defense: Any. Before the attacker rolls, he must select a defensive benefit. If he attacks with a balanced weapon (including a hand or a shield), he may choose either +1 to Parry with one of his weapons or +1 to Block. He can assign the bonus to the weapon he’s striking with. If he attacks with an unbalanced weapon (one with “U” in its Parry statistic), he may claim +1 to Parry or Block with a different weapon, or opt to parry with the same weapon, at no bonus, despite using it to attack. If he kicks, he gets no Block or Parry bonus but +2 on rolls to avoid a Leg Grapple (p. 76) and on DX rolls to avoid falling.

Pretty much all Unready weapons are also Unbalanced weapons, so the question is: do they follow the same rules of not-Unready Unbalanced weapons? And if the answer in "no", what rules are applied in that case?

If the answer is "no", I can just think to two alternatives:
1) Unready weapons cannot be used with Defensive Attack - but I think that all attack options should be viable for all melee weapons;
2) Unready weapons with Defensive Attack become unbalanced but not unready after the attack.

[Farmer]

I think you may have confused Unready and Unbalanced. Any weapon can become Unready, some after any attack, some if you don't have enough strength, some because they were attacked or hit, and so on. Unready is a state, not an intrinsic quality.

It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.

So if a weapon in Unready (for any reason) it can't be used for anything (that's what it means to be Unready - it's not ready for use) and you must spend a turn to ready it (or use some ability to do it as a free action if applicable).

I hope I've clarified this, and not made it more confusing!

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Farmer

I think you may have confused Unready and Unbalanced. Any weapon can become Unready, some after any attack, some if you don't have enough strength, some because they were attacked or hit, and so on. Unready is a state, not an intrinsic quality.

It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.

So if a weapon in Unready (for any reason) it can't be used for anything (that's what it means to be Unready - it's not ready for use) and you must spend a turn to ready it (or use some ability to do it as a free action if applicable).

I hope I've clarified this, and not made it more confusing!

Actually I'm referring to specific classes of weapons that fall under the skills Two-Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm. Weapons like Maul, Great Axe, Oar and polearms with Reach 3 or more. All of them are unbalanced (of course!) but they also become unready after an attack. So for "Unready" weapons I'm referring not to any weapon in an unready state, but to these specific melee weapons that are unbalanced and always become unready after an attack.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Rasna

If the answer is "no", I can just think to two alternatives:
1) Unready weapons cannot be used with Defensive Attack - but I think that all attack options should be viable for all melee weapons;
2) Unready weapons with Defensive Attack become unbalanced but not unready after the attack.

The only RAW means of usefully combining defensive attack and a double-dagger weapon is if you have 3+ arms and can thus claim the bonus to a different weapon or shield.

[Rasna]

Let's take an example.

If a ST 13 warrior does a Defensive Attack with a Maul (sw+5 cr / Parry 0U / ST 13‡), his Defensive Attack with the weapon will be:
1) sw+3 cr?
2) sw+3 cr, the weapon is unbalanced and cannot parry but it doesn't become undready after the attack because the Defensive Attack?
3) sw+3 cr, but the weapon becomes unready after the attack?

[sir_pudding]

Defensive attack doesn't interact with double dagger at all. If you aren't strong enough, a defensive attack makes the weapon unready, just like any other attack.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Defensive attack doesn't interact with double dagger at all. If you aren't strong enough, a defensive attack makes the weapon unready, just like any other attack.

So doing a Defensive Attack with a "‡" melee weapon is a waste because the weapon inflicts less damage and still becomes unready after the attack. Am I right?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rasna

So doing a Defensive Attack with a "‡" melee weapon is a waste because the weapon inflicts less damage and still becomes unready after the attack. Am I right?

Unless you have three arms or something. Or are using some other method to recover it. Isn't there an Exta Effort that does this?

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Actually I'm referring to specific classes of weapons that fall under the skills Two-Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm. Weapons like Maul, Great Axe, Oar and polearms with Reach 3 or more. All of them are unbalanced (of course!) but they also become unready after an attack. So for "Unready" weapons I'm referring not to any weapon in an unready state, but to these specific melee weapons that are unbalanced and always become unready after an attack.

OK, so it's simple. When a weapon is Unready, nothing can be done with it until you ready it. It becomes Unready AFTER you attack. So you can do a defensive attack, taking into account the rules for Unbalanced weapons, which means within that round you can parry with it (again, as per the rules). The Unready status is a consequence of the Unbalanced (and any other contributors), but so long as it is not Unready in the turn you use it, it's all good. It would not be available next turn unless you have a way to instantly ready it.

[Plane]

One strange thing I always wondered about B269:

“U” means the weapon is unbalanced: you cannot use it to parry if you have already used it to attack this turn (or vice versa).

Why is there a vice versa? I thought your "turn" began with your maneuver, so your inability to parry would count for the rest of your turn until your next one started...

About the only situation I can see a vice-versa mattering is if someone interrupted your Step>Attack w/ a Wait, so you parried first and then did your attack after?

Originally Posted by Farmer

It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.

B271's axe/mace weapons have a bunch of Parry 0U ones w/o any special dagger (single or double) on their ST... also the case for the Bastard Sword wielded 1H via Broadsword skill

also case for the Flail on B272

only really see single/double dagger stuff emerge for ST on the polearms further down on B272...

but B270 rules allow you to ignore that for double-daggar weapons if you have 1.5x the strength req, such as wielding a poleaxe w/ ST 18

- - -

this gives me an idea for an optional house rule that could be interesting... wondering what people think of it

We know if you have ST 12 you can wield a poleaxe without penalty... whereas you would be -1 to DX if you wielded it w/ ST 11.

But you suffer the usual problem of a double-dagger weapon: it becomes unready after each attack!

The same thing applies at ST 17 ... unlike ST 18 (it does not become unready) you're still suffering the unreadiness, at no advantage compared to ST11 besides the damage.

so my idea is: you can enjoy the benefit of 1.5x ST (no unreadiness) but only if you take DX penalties appropriate as if the 1.5x ST requirement was the ST srequirement

So for example the ST 12 person who wants to avoid unreadying his poleaxe has to suffer -6 to DX when using it, while the ST17 person only suffers -1 to DX.

This basically would reflect a sliding scale of how difficult it would be to attack without unreadying the weapon.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Unless you have three arms or something. Or are using some other method to recover it. Isn't there an Exta Effort that does this?

Not that I can find, MA131 has "Rapid RecoverY" but that's just to emulate the Defensive Attack benefit of being able to parry with unbalanced weapons, it doesn't ready an unready weapon.

using a Ready w/o a Ready maneuver is usually covered by the Fast Draw skill but I think you need to try those at the start of a maneuver so I can't see it helping in a "lose your parry for the rest of the turn" situation