We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

The problem with a "flat TL" is that it doen't cover all existing technology variations within a certain time or civilization. Because of that I prefer to analyze every technological aspect separately, creating a separate TL for each aspect.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

NASA put 4 boots on the moon in 1969, as a massive technical endavour. Arguably a pre-mature thing. Had they waited until rocket technology was mature, they could have done it safer and more cheaply.
.

It was 12 boots and not just 4. It would have been 14 if Apollo 13 hadn't had its' problem and more than that if multiple missions had not been trimmed off the back end of the program.

The other thing is that if rocketry was not mature them it's not that much more mature now.

[whswhs]

All the stuff about astronomical knowledge doesn't strike me as compelling. Rather, I would say that that level of knowledge, achievable with the naked eye and with Euclidean geometry, is what properly defines TL2 astronomy. You can do some really amazing stuff with intelligently applied geometry.

And "most of the population doesn't have it" doesn't strike me a big issue with theoretical science; most people now, at TL8, can't operate a radio telescope, or set up a numerical model of pressure/temperature stratification in a star, and for that matter most people can't do something TL4-5 like compute a planetary orbit, but that doesn't mean our astronomy is TL3.

Different issues arise with applied technology like grain mills, of course.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by ericthered

And its not about mathmatics and astronomy. Its about engineering, about communication, transportation, and infrastructure.

A good reason why "tech level" is a more apt term than "science level" or "knowledge level". Application of the knowledge matters, which is why adjectives like "widespread" and "typical" keep showing up in these discussions.

Higher tech "miracle" devices are possible in most settings. The main game question to me seems to be whether you're going to let the PCs have the gadget -- because they'll want it -- or whether it's just a plot device, in which case you need some prepared reasons as to why the PCs aren't going to able to bend it to their munchkinly whims.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

What about those technologies do you believe conflicts with TLs as they are currently described?

Automated mills, automated sawing machines, machines that compute a large number of astronomical parameters...

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Anders

Automated mills, automated sawing machines, machines that compute a large number of astronomical parameters...

Modest use of water power (and compared to what developed in TL3, Roman use of water power was definitely modest) is already defined as part of TL2, as are orreries. Those may surprise people with a vague conception of ancient technology, but GURPS RAW already encompasses them.

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Modest use of water power (and compared to what developed in TL3, Roman use of water power was definitely modest) is already defined as part of TL2, as are orreries. Those may surprise people with a vague conception of ancient technology, but GURPS RAW already encompasses them.

The Romans built aqueducts hundreds of kilometres long, complete with inverse siphons. That is not modest.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

The Romans built aqueducts hundreds of kilometres long, complete with inverse siphons. That is not modest.

Water power defined, as it is used in the OP, as waterwheels.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi

But either way, as far I know,this discussion only applies to the Early Middle Ages. After the XI-XII century, Europe practically begins to recover and perhaps surpass the Roman's technological achievements.

And remember: according to Low-Tech, TL 3 covers many technological inventions, even the most primitive firearms.

(PS: Sorry of any english mistakes)

Well, that depends. Quite a few technologies which were common in the early Roman empire were not matched or bettered before the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries. Transport is a good example: from roadbuilding and maritime concrete, to wagon design, to the size of ships (see any recent encyclopaedia of ancient technology ... I appreciate that this may be difficult in Brazil, although there are many good Spanish and Portugese archaeologists). But starting in the early middle ages technologies also appear which the Romans did not have, like Norse shipbuilding, large lateen sails, and the compass. So its less 14th century France having a higher TL than 1st century Gaul (being able to make all the same cool things and more) as having a different set of cool things (guns yes, ships of thousands of tuns' burden no).

But the TL system was designed by a biologist and a physicist to answer "what kit can I buy?" and "what genre is this game?" not by historians for modelling historical societies, and people like Matt Riggsby and Bill Stoddard have to adapt it as best as they can for the later purpose. As you say, it can't really describe what makes Cimbria different from Gaul in the first century CE, since both have agriculture and ironworking.

[ericthered]

This thread from this point on is quite relevant to the conversation

Milling technology is something that the roman's had, even if they didn't use it to full effect (blame it on the slave economy).

Their engineering, from aqueducts to roads to buildings, is superior to the middle ages hands down (though not china during the same period)

Literacy rates in the mediaeval Europe look more like pre-grecian numbers than during roman times.

Seige engines of the romans are the equal of anything made up until the 1200's or 1300's.

In terms of goods being available, technologies used on a regular basis, and general feel, Rome and the heirs of Alexander and much closer to true TL3.

I will point out that TL should be for a region and culture, not for the entire earth at a particular time period.