12-16-2020, 08:56 AM | #41 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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On the direct damage on the CNS vs. death by rapid bleeding out you could distinguish this further in game than the system currently does. So the locations we're discussing lead to death in one of two ways: 1). having some high injury multiplier and no upper injury cap leading to big instant HP loss 2). having worse than normal bleeding rules. Some combination of bleeding faster (30 sec per roll not 60 sec), being harder to stop (a negative mod to do so) or requiring surgery not just first aid to directly stop bleeding. Surgery having it's own set of situational mods as well. But some things stay the same for example make three successful bleeding rolls in a row (or get one critical success) and you stop bleeding. In terms of the realism debate the "downside" of the first is that in terms of killing you it's all or nothing, i.e. it either leads to a unsuccessful death roll, or it doesn't. The downside of the second is that it can be seen to take too long (you are losing 1 or 3 hp per failed roll on 30 second schedule) but barring good intervention bleeding at penalty from HT10 is bad news even if it's not super quick. (IME this where the distinction between first aid and surgery becomes v/important). so really the current bleeding rules do that job it's just they might not be fast enough to be super realistic. As per Douglas Cole's post. Of course since in general the 2nd follows the 1st they combine here! NB: I'm not sure how that link matches up with your figures, a 10HP/10HT target getting hitting through the skull for 5 points of damage leading to a 20 point injury will bleed at -4 or equivalent HT6 and an average loss of 52.9 hp before stabilising. i.e. an average total of 73 hp lost so hitting the -5xHP threshold becomes a more relevant limiting factor here than how much you bleed on average (but I also get you are approaching this in a different way by assessing the probability of range of outcomes). A simple solution here might be just to further reduce down the cycle of bleeding tests for some wounds/locations we think should bleed quicker than 1hp/3hp per 30 seconds. But as I said earlier there is a risk that we just end up with a different way of describing "and they're dead" without adding too much to our games but rolling a lot dice and fishing for crits.
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-16-2020 at 10:09 AM. |
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12-16-2020, 09:12 AM | #42 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
You could in theory expand out the rules for mortal wounds, so there's somewhere between "dies instantly" and "probably bleeds out in 5+ minutes." Say, failure by 1 means normal mortal wounds rules, failure by 2 means the character has mortal wounds and will die in 1d hours unless they are stabilized, failure by 3 means death in 1d minutes, failure by 4 means death in 1d seconds (likely requiring magic or superscience to avoid), and failure by 5 means actual instant death. Alternatively, outside of failure by 5, have the character make another death check when time elapses; critical success upgrades you to just suffering mortal wounds (or maybe just upgrades you one step, from seconds to minutes), success restarts the clock, failure downgrades you by MoF steps (1d hours->1d minutes->1d seconds->death).
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12-16-2020, 09:19 AM | #43 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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A recent study focusing on the Survival of Penetrating Injury to the Brain (SPIN rather than SPIB, for cool-acronym reasons) assessment, found a 42% survival rate of those admitted to trauma centers for penetrating wounds to the brain, most of which were gunshots. Self-inflicted and military wounds have skewed the results in the past was one of the notes. Big thing in the above is surviving to get to a Level 1 Trauma Center. If you die on the street from a brain injury, they don't take you there; they take you elsewhere.
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12-16-2020, 09:20 AM | #44 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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It would also only kick in once you've lost enough HP to qualify for a death roll.
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course |
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12-16-2020, 09:31 AM | #45 |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
[QUOTE=DouglasCole;2358425t, found a 42% survival rate of those admitted to trauma centers for penetrating wounds to the brain, most of which were gunshots. Self-inflicted and military wounds have skewed the results in the past was one of the notes.
[/QUOTE] Was there some sort of filter used? It'd be eaasy to exclude the military results (which involve higher energy rounds more often) but including self-inflicted wounds would skew because of the people who put the gun to their temples (which can cause blindness and lobotomy but misses the brain stem).
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Fred Brackin |
12-16-2020, 09:38 AM | #46 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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My impression was a systematic look at such injuries hadn't been done recently. Some of this could be synthesized surprise as they were trying to promote their SPIN-score methodology. Anyway, the data above is - as I noted - a selected subset. Folks have to not die on site, and the study noted that those transferred to Tier 1 trauma centers did much better than those less-equipped to handle such injuries. Anyway, I feel like I'm digressing. The stats Varyon showed for mortality from a .45 gunshot wound seem close enough for me. "One shot KO" is really the key bit for no longer being a threat from a game perspective; the rest is mostly window dressing for foes, or important after the battle for PCs and prime NPCs, who often will survive or not based more on "how much the GM cares" than lots of die rolls.
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12-16-2020, 09:50 AM | #47 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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And, yes, this would result in fewer instant deaths, but really I don't think instant death is all that common. Also, as Douglas Cole notes, how quickly someone dies (or even if they die, often) only really matters for PC's and important NPC's, and even if it means sacrificing a little realism, I think the higher potential for interesting/dramatic results is worth it.
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12-16-2020, 10:08 AM | #48 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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I'm fine with instant deaths being less common (sorry didn't mean to give a different impression). My point was that if the concern is people aren't bleeding out fast enough this house rule would only take effect once you reached a -1xHP. Which might take bleeding at the usual rate to reach in some cases. But I take your point, what this would do is show some people dying by bleeding out instead of them just dropping dead instantly.
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-16-2020 at 11:16 PM. |
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12-16-2020, 07:36 PM | #49 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the UFO
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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So... the tissue destruction would channel and damage - assuming the round has sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate DR and through enough flesh, and didn't hit bone - might be something like: Max injury = "bullet diameter in mm x bullet's length to width ratio x 0.5 x hit location modifier" . The length to width ratio is about 2 for most pistol ammo (including .22 LR, which is shaped like a pistol bullet) and about 4 for most rifle ammo, 1 for musket balls, etc.; you can find specific stats by looking it up if you want). Note that this is the bullet, not the cartridge length. Examples: .22 LR pistol round = 5.6 x 2 x 0.5 = 5.5 9mm pistol round to torso = 9 x 2 x 0.5 = 9 .45 pistol round to torso = 11.4 x 2 x 0.5 = 11 5.56mm rifle round to torso = 5.6 x 4 x 0.5 = 11 7.62mm rifle round to torso = 7.6 x 4 x 0.5 = 15 .50 MG round to torso = 13 x 4 x 0.5 = 26. Of course, in reality, say, the 5.56mm rifle round will have more kinetic energy than, say, a .45 and so is more likely to shatter bones and such (or perhaps do hydrostatic shock if it hits a closed system like the skull) so the way GURPS does it of having it inflict a higher damage than merely basing it on wound channel is quite reasonable. I think that's what Frank also concluded for GDW's own game. Personally, I'd stick with the current rules (or some variant of them like the ones I proposed) as it simplifies the issues of damage on a partial penetration (e.g., firing against an unarmored foe, etc.)...
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12-16-2020, 08:02 PM | #50 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
For a conventional bullet that fails to expand or fragment that's the stable direction, but failing to expand or fragment is a pretty big caveat. Also, it's mostly redundant with blowthrough, any bullet that gets stopped in tissue deposits all of its energy and will cause nearly constant tissue destruction at any given bullet mass and velocity.
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Tags |
guns, rules modification, survivable guns |
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