eye rake w/ Sword?

[Plane]

So I just finished Blade Runner: Black Lotus and one of the scenes from one of the episodes caught my eye.

Basically a katana (swing cutting) is used to rake someone across the eyes, blinding both of them.

A weak cut to the face obviously couldn't cut deep enough to hit the brain (skull DR would stop the sword) but sholdn't it be able to hit the eyes? Seems like at best the bridge of the nose might slow it down, but nose cartilage would be easier to cut through than a skull so I'm guessing 1 DR at most.

Just wondering if we let swing-cut attacks target eyes at -1 but only for blinding purposes (otherwise a normal face hit, not brain) if that would make sense?

I'm not sure how you'd do it w/ arching to hit both eyes in a single slice though. Maybe like with Extreme Dismemberment you roll a 2nd time to hit the 2nd part?

[Varyon]

I haven't seen that scene, although something that sounds similar happened in Cowboy Bebop. For mechanics, this is roughly something like "the eyes can be targeted by a cutting attack, but this is treated as a Face hit." I'd also have any worn DR that includes coverage for the Nose (like a nasal guard on a helmet) apply. Note it takes very little damage to cripple an eye. Striking both eyes happens if you take a further -2 to hit; this is simultaneously treated as a Nose hit, and you must deal enough Injury to Cripple the Nose for the second eye to be hit (you have to cut through the bridge of the nose to hit the other eye).

So, to summarize, you can target one eye at -9, contending with Nose DR and crippling the eye if you wound the target by more than HP/10 but otherwise treating the attack as a Face hit, or you can target both eyes at -11, again contending with Nose DR; you cripple one eye if you wound the target by more than HP/10, while you cripple both eyes and the Nose if you wound the target by more than HP/4.

Personally, I'd be inclined to basically treat any case of eye crippling here the same - there's no "automatic permanent crippling" damage threshold (because that would be basically anything above HP/5, and that's pretty darn weak), but rather if the eye is crippled, you roll against HT to see if it's temporary, lasting, or permanent. Honestly, I think all crippling injuries should be handled like this, perhaps with the HT roll being at -5 per full Crippling Threshold you are above minimum Crippling (so if it takes 6 Injury to cripple the arm, taking 12 Injury means you're at -5, 18 is at -10, 24 is at -15, etc); if you need to know if the limb is severed, roll to see how badly crippled the limb is immediately - permanent crippling can be treated as severing the limb (I also feel crippling shouldn't generally be automatic - Success by 5+ or any Critical Success on the crippling roll should mean the limb/extremity/whatever remains functional... but I digress).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

A weak cut to the face obviously couldn't cut deep enough to hit the brain (skull DR would stop the sword) but sholdn't it be able to hit the eyes? Seems like at best the bridge of the nose might slow it down, but nose cartilage would be easier to cut through than a skull so I'm guessing 1 DR at most.

The bridge of the nose is bone, though not very thick.

[kenclary]

There's a similar move (to the neck) in a deleted scene of Kill Bill (the one with Michael Jae White).

Arguably "draw cut" is the real name for this type of attack. Per MA66, GURPS would model it as a Defensive Attack. In this case, a Defensive Attack targetting the eyes.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kenclary

There's a similar move (to the neck) in a deleted scene of Kill Bill (the one with Michael Jae White).

Arguably "draw cut" is the real name for this type of attack. Per MA66, GURPS would model it as a Defensive Attack. In this case, a Defensive Attack targetting the eyes.

You still need rules for actually attacking the eyes. As for Draw Cuts, yeah, that's certainly what Vicious did - and my interpretation would make a Draw Cut against the eyes easier than a normal attack against them (indeed, given the low crippling threshold, if what you're trying to do is cripple the eyes, my Draw Cut is probably a good idea... at least so long as the foe isn't wearing armor that would get in the way).

[Fred Brackin]

Just to complicate matters, it was done with Blind Fighting or just plain blind (bioroid had an implanted command to never harm her creator, it didn't work when she couldn't see him).

Seems to me like a situation for Purchasing Successes with CP.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Spoiler:  

it was done with Blind Fighting or just plain blind
(bioroid had an implanted command to never harm her creator, it didn't work when she couldn't see him).

Seems to me like a situation for Purchasing Successes with CP.

I put spoiler tags around the details you revealed, since it just aired and is a pretty big event.

You probably wouldn't need to purchase success in this situation:

Spoiler:  

basically because she knew exactly where he was standing (she did get a look at him first, prior to closing her eyes) it would be only -4 to hit instead of the usual -6

she probably has good enough hearing to know he hadn't moved, and she could telegraph her attack (+4 to hit) since she prob thought (prob correctly) that he was so overconfident that he couldn't conceive of her carrying through on her attack

plus she seems to be taking time to Evaluate for the full 3 seconds (+3 to hit) and even though it's not legal to combine telegraph+evaluate in MA, it's an accepted house-rule promoted I think by Kromm years ago

also I think there's grounds to argue she doubles her evaluate from +3 to +6 since his guard is dropped (like with the unarmed critical miss table, I'd give double-evaluate-bonus benefit to other stuff like attacking unmoving objects,unconscious foes, etc)

we see for example in previous attacks (ie she was trying to thrust-impale him in the brain earlier) that he doesn't even FLINCH much less try a parry or dodge

I think any actual attack Elle completes against him is effectively a surprise attack: while he sees them coming, he doesn't perceive them to be attacks

also I don't know if it was 100% due to her not being able to see his face while doing it, it might also be due to her choosing to maim instead of kill him: in her preivous attack she was going for a killing blow

my guess is she didn't really know what was holding her back (seeing the face, or having killing intent) so she decided to counter both (not look at face, intentionally hold back from a deadly hit) to defeat him

but yeah if you did miss your roll spending bonus CP is one way to get a hit... although isn't that normally taboo for combat rolls? I can't remember

Originally Posted by Varyon

I haven't seen that scene, although something that sounds similar happened in Cowboy Bebop.

Been a while since I saw CB, wasn't into GURPS at the time, didn't remember this happening, good point of comparison.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd be inclined to basically treat any case of eye crippling here the same - there's no "automatic permanent crippling" damage threshold (because that would be basically anything above HP/5, and that's pretty darn weak), but rather if the eye is crippled, you roll against HT to see if it's temporary, lasting, or permanent.

Do you think like with how MA72 treats Eye Rake that HT roll should be penalized based on penetrating damage?

Temporary crippling is usually "until HP comes back" whereas Eye-Rake uses MoF minutes.

Hm... that's actually interesting to think about... technically Eye-Rake could keep someone w/ Regeneration (Extreme) blind for longer than someone who used Eye Poke...

Originally Posted by kenclary

Arguably "draw cut" is the real name for this type of attack. Per MA66, GURPS would model it as a Defensive Attack. In this case, a Defensive Attack targetting the eyes.

Martial Arts seems kind of inconsistent about what a draw cut refers to...

MA66:

Most “advanced” methods add in maneuvers other than Attack.
Draw cuts, flicking blows from the wrist, and so on are Defensive Attacks.
Aggressive tactics – flèche, lunge, pass, stab-and-twist, etc. – are Committed Attacks or All-Out Attacks

MA97:

All-Out Attack (Double) might be a chop followed by a spinning draw cut
. . . or a single, deadly “throatslitting”attack,
the two attack rolls reflecting the difficulty of the feat, the chance that the victim could escape mid-cut, and the potential for twice the damage

To me a draw cut is somewhat akin to a shove, in that you first have established contact and then apply force, instead of applying force to reach high speeds and making contact with momentum.

Originally Posted by Varyon

As for Draw Cuts, yeah, that's certainly what Vicious did - and my interpretation would make a Draw Cut against the eyes easier than a normal attack against them

I'm thinking with Technical Grappling we could take a new approach (instead of either AOA double or Defensive Attack) to reflecting what a draw cut is.

TG14 "If grappling with a cutting weapon, successfully applying CP also inflicts basic cutting damage equal to half the CP"

Grappling w/ cutting weapons instead of doing "swing cut" would halve the hit location penalties (neck -3 instead of -5, same for "head") so presumably it could do the same with "grappling the eyes" at -5 instead of the usual -9.

I think that's possibly where the -5 for MA71's eye-gouging probably comes from, except that's using 2 hands (it's only -4 if you do it one-handed against a single eye)

Once you've actually established this grapple, subsequent "Improve Grapple" attacks are -0 to hit, and apply further "half the CP as cutting damage" while improving control.


- - -


If you're sacrificing that control to do even more damage (ie drawing the weapon across instead of locking it in) then maybe something akin to TG24's approach to "Grab and Smash" could be allowed where you can spend those Control Points immediately for a damage bonus?

I guess the issue here is how to reflect "I've lined up my knife in front of the neck/eyes to be able to easily 'grapple' at a moment's notice, but have not actually made contact so I'm not forced to inflict the minimum 1 basic damage that cutting damage always does".

This is a sort of "pseudo-grapple" IMO, where it emulates grappling's closeness without actually having force exerted.

Like "I am miming a headlock around this person but my arm is not actually touching them, there's a slight air gap". You've set up where you can at a moment's notice clamp down more easily than if you were standing next to them arms at your side.

Maybe some kind of "setup attack" from one of the Pyramid 3/52 would cover that? Cole also did that so hopefully it meshes well with TG, been meaning to take a closer look...

[Varyon]

IIRC (I've lost my notes), the way I designed my Draw Cut Technique was that it's basically a Rapid Strike that consists of a grapple followed by dealing damage. It enjoys a +4 to each (net -2) because the first attack doesn't generate any Control (or do any incidental damage), and the second generally turns swing damage into thr, has a poor armor divisor, and is forfeit if you miss with the first attack. Note this is why splitting it into two separate Maneuvers (or even attacks, if you've got Extra Attack with Multistrike) gives you a +6. The penalty to defenses is poorly described - the intent is that the foe must use the same defense against both sides of the attack, suffering the listed penalty against the second one, but it all just counts as one defense for iteration purposes. In Technical Grappling terms - or, more specifically, Fantastic Dungeon Grappling terms - the first half is a weapon bind, and the foe can get away from it by simply retreating away if given the chance. Arguably, you could take a -4 to the first part of the attack (giving up the "no damage" drawback) to actually generate Control (and do some incidental damage in the process), then cash in the gained Control on the second half of the attack to boost damage. Of course, FDG handles the damage boost a bit differently - every 3 Control adds +1d to damage (I'd allow for the poorer exchange rate - but better reliability - of every 1 Control being worth +1 damage, however).

As for a case where you are basically positioned to grapple but don't yet have any control over your subject, that's a 0 Control grapple, like the first half of the above. FDG doesn't allow for these, and TG is a bit vague on how exactly they function. I'd say they basically function like a normal grapple, but the foe can choose to "opt out" on their own turn, requiring no action or roll to break free. If you've got an appropriate Wait prepared, however, you can use that 0 Control grapple as an established grapple for purposes of the Wait, even if the foe opted out (so you can hold a knife up to someone's neck without cutting them - so a 0 Control grapple - and have a Wait prepared that says "If they try to get away, I'll slit their throat;" if they then attempt to opt out, your wait is triggered, and the throat-slitting bit suffers no penalty for hit location, as its part of an established grapple to the Neck).

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Plane

So I just finished Blade Runner: Black Lotus and one of the scenes from one of the episodes caught my eye.

Basically a katana (swing cutting) is used to rake someone across the eyes, blinding both of them.

I think this is a thing which sometimes happened in the Napoleonic Wars. I would be tempted to treat it as a possible outcome of a Critical Hit. Its a strike which can only happen in some relative positions (eg. riding past someone running away and giving a horizontal cut to their face). GURPS Hit Locations have to be something you can target from almost any relative position, because relative position (beyond the six facings) is abstracted away.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

IIRC (I've lost my notes), the way I designed my Draw Cut Technique was that it's basically a Rapid Strike that consists of a grapple followed by dealing damage. It enjoys a +4 to each (net -2) because the first attack doesn't generate any Control (or do any incidental damage), and the second generally turns swing damage into thr, has a poor armor divisor, and is forfeit if you miss with the first attack.

Note this is why splitting it into two separate Maneuvers (or even attacks, if you've got Extra Attack with Multistrike) gives you a +6.

I definitely like setting it up as different techniques since you sometimes have drawcuts after delays.

Something like a defensive attack which not only establishes zero control points but also doesn't cut them for damage would also be interesting...

I guess if you can strike with flats of cutting weapons you might be able to grapple w/ them too for avoiding cutting damage?

If that's the case might "must grapple with flat" be some kind of drawback?

Originally Posted by Varyon

As for a case where you are basically positioned to grapple but don't yet have any control over your subject, that's a 0 Control grapple, like the first half of the above. FDG doesn't allow for these, and TG is a bit vague on how exactly they function.

0cp grapple requires escaping from (to -1 CP) to move away.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd say they basically function like a normal grapple, but the foe can choose to "opt out" on their own turn, requiring no action or roll to break free.

TG still requires the break free, but unlike a 1 CP grapple it requires inflicting 1 instead of 2 cp