05-31-2023, 12:10 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Apr 2022
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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After getting wounded on a remote trail and being nursed back to health by said friend? While staying with his family who are all good faithhavers? His children sang beautiful hymns in the study of their house, and everything. Perhaps the character would still recline. But then tragedy happens. Because the friend was not able to come to church that day, he got into a deadly accident, or something. And the last words they exchanged was "You know how it is, not disadvantageous at'ah" I bet you could squeeze a point or two out of that... could go into that one point of horseriding that turned out decisive a few sessions down the road, you know?
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05-31-2023, 12:38 PM | #32 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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Note incidentally that Intolerance causes a reaction roll penalty on both sides but Social Stigma often does not. Freeman Black doesn't have a negative reaction modifier to a 19th century white person who has the normal -2 reaction modifier to him, because he's used to it. He expects it. Now, Thongor the Barbarian does have a negative reaction to the city folk who who react to him at -3 because he's not actually from the culture that regards him as a "barbarian". If the reference setting is The Barbarous Wilds, and there's a guy from the city there, then he is the one who has a social stigma, and if he retains the prejudices of his homeland that only adds to the chance that he'll be quickly murdered. Last edited by David Johnston2; 05-31-2023 at 12:59 PM. |
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05-31-2023, 08:05 PM | #33 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
I think the primary problem people have with Social Stigma is they want to read it as if the reaction penalty were the disadvantage. That's IMO exactly the wrong way around, and indeed I consider most of the quoted reaction penalties to be pretty nonsensical. People don't react [poorly] to children with Social Stigma (Minor) they react [differently], sometimes better, sometimes worse, sometimes just different, depending on the situation, and it nets out to an inconvenience for children [trying to function as adventurers]. Same thing really for Second Class Citizen. Yes people sometime don't help you as much or scapegoat you (negative reaction sure) but occasionally they'll ignore you to your benefit (stupid one of THEM couldn't possibly be smart enough to be the villain here/nah no worries, even if he saw anything he can't testify....), nets out to usually a small drawback.
The reaction penalty isn't the point of the trait, it's a tacked on add on that works no better than most of GURPS reaction modifiers, which mostly isn't great. I understand you need mechanical rules, because if you leave social disadvantages entirely to roleplay, munchkins claim free points, but [lots] of GURPS social traits aren't really about the reaction modifiers, and don't make a great deal of sense if you try to insist they are.
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05-31-2023, 10:21 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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THAT's what Bad Reputation (Sympathetic to Hated Minority Group Members) can get you, at the very least, in settings where religious or racial intolerance is the norm. The nuances of various Social Stigmas are so varied that you can't really do it justice using just the rules in the Basic Set. It's one of those disads that should have a big asterisk next to it, so that the GM knows that it's very much campaign dependent. In a well thought-out game setting, the GM should put some thought into what Social Stigmas exist and what they mean. It might be as simple as just a -1 to -3 Reaction Penalty, or a package of specific social limitations (e.g., Medieval Jews or prostitutes having to wear distinctive dress to allow them to be quickly identified as such) and Taboo Traits. If the GM or players don't want to deal with the Not Fun implications of Social Stigma, just make it a Quirk. |
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05-31-2023, 10:33 PM | #35 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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For example, if it's pertinent to their job and they behave in an obsequious enough fashion (a successful Fast Talk or Savoir Faire (Servant) roll) a slave might not have a penalty if they ask their master for necessary clarification to perform some task they've just been assigned. If a slave tries to take command of a situation, even if it's an emergency that they're best equipped to handle, they'll have penalties. People might not respect their authority or they might get beaten or killed later for being uppity. |
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06-01-2023, 12:10 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: Oct 2022
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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Note also that Mysteries suggests to use social stigma when said person engages in a profession that the society does not see as fit for that gender, and the penalties relate mostly to rolls on the job, not outside. The example is woman investigator in the last century - penalty when dealing with witnesses and victims - but that approach could be extended, some societies may still see elementary school teaching as unfit for men... |
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06-01-2023, 02:05 AM | #37 | |
Join Date: Apr 2022
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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You touch on the black folks being used to it all and therefore not 'rolling' for reactions (often enough to make it noteworthy). But that when pressed on the issue, someone who doesn't actually outright hate the other party, might get intro trouble by those who take it one step further. Just like Freeman Black and white Character can cooperate etc. They still are under objections, and could get into actual trouble by more hardline members of the overall ideologies that create the division in the first place. Just like a woman could overall be a very mild second grade citizen overall, with a generally pervasive mindset of "they just ain't as good as men". At the relatively low penalty of -1, but in such a society where that even is a thing, you might have people that just take it a lot farther, to extents that would probably warrant a "roll" for it. The difference between verbal abuse and the threat of physical injury, for example. You could very well get numb to words, but...the sticks and stones coming at you might still be due to added intolerances, sadism, bullying, perhaps even bloodlust by the ones wielding the rocks and cudgels.
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If it's forbidden to say anything good about something, why believe the bad that's said about it? If it's forbidden to say anything bad about something, why believe the good that's said about it? |
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06-01-2023, 12:31 PM | #38 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
It is totally RAW for a GM to use their judgement to decide what task difficulty modifiers apply to any roll based on the circumstances that apply to a given situation.
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06-01-2023, 07:13 PM | #39 |
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
And as several classic mystery series (Mrs. Marple, Maude Silver) show, it matters how you approach things. If they say they are investigating the murder they don't get answers, they get criticized for being out of their place. If they are just gossipy old ladies they learn lots.
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06-02-2023, 01:21 AM | #40 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
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My gaming blog: Apotheosis of the Invisible City "Call me old-fashioned, but after you're dead, I don't think you should be entitled to a Dodge any more." - my wife It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I disagree with what you're saying. |
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