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Old 09-19-2022, 08:36 AM   #1
Nestyr
 
Join Date: May 2021
Default Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Hi all,

Long time lurker here (dont let the "join date" fool you - I first joined up when the internet was still a brand new thing. Yes, I am old...).

With the advent of relatively inexpensive resin printers, are there any resources out there for detailed minis that can be used for 1" scale Car Wars?

Is it likely SJG will produce 3D printer files for 1" scale Car Wars?

There's lots of stuff for "Hotwheels scale" Gaslands, and a few collections at 1:180 scale, with different levels of detail, but I haven't found anything yet which screams "print me"!

So, if it is allowed, and if you know of any good stl/ obj/ 3mf/ etc files for 1" Car Wars, whether they be Patreon, pay per file, free, etc, would you mind sharing with myself, and the rest of the class? :)

Cheers,

Last edited by Nestyr; 09-19-2022 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Brain malfunction
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:55 PM   #2
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Can't speak for SJGames, so this is total speculation:

Nothing has been announced that I'm aware of, but I could definitely see 3d printable minis for Car Wars 6e happening in the future. CW has a strong base, FLGS distribution is ramping up, and the company has seen some real success with the Kickstarters for .stl files they've done so far for TFT.

I would not expect to see anything directly and specifically targeting 4e, but I could possibly see some minimum [and probably unofficial] testing being done to verify that the .stl files are basically workable if scaled down to 33%, i.e. 4e scale. [I can particularly see this for Car Wars minis, because Car Wars minis are pretty much the best case scenario for dynamically scaling the 3d printing - relatively low and wide, requiring an absolute minimum of supports.]

I don't think it'd be a huge priority for them, but if it's not a huge amount of extra work, I could see some lip service being paid to the idea that, at least unofficially, scaling the .stl files down to 4e scale should be workable.

I think that's about the maximum 4e can expect to see in terms of official support going forward.
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Old 09-19-2022, 06:37 PM   #3
Overload
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

One Inch is is pretty small. What sort of resolution can you get with a 3D printer?

I have a bunch of old lead CW minis from the 80s, and they're not very good; again a resolution problem. You could figure out what car from the Vehicle Guide they were, but that's about it. I also have some 1" lead car models from another company of sports cars, with again, the same deal.
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Old 09-19-2022, 07:33 PM   #4
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Resin printers, of the sorts SJGames have targeted with their STL files [and will continue to support for the foreseeable future] have WAY higher resolution than any filament printers you may have seen in the past. They're genuinely impressive, even if they are significant more of a pain to use.
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Old 09-20-2022, 05:54 AM   #5
Nestyr
 
Join Date: May 2021
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
Can't speak for SJGames, so this is total speculation:

Nothing has been announced that I'm aware of, but I could definitely see 3d printable minis for Car Wars 6e happening in the future. CW has a strong base, FLGS distribution is ramping up, and the company has seen some real success with the Kickstarters for .stl files they've done so far for TFT.

I would not expect to see anything directly and specifically targeting 4e, but I could possibly see some minimum [and probably unofficial] testing being done to verify that the .stl files are basically workable if scaled down to 33%, i.e. 4e scale. [I can particularly see this for Car Wars minis, because Car Wars minis are pretty much the best case scenario for dynamically scaling the 3d printing - relatively low and wide, requiring an absolute minimum of supports.]

I don't think it'd be a huge priority for them, but if it's not a huge amount of extra work, I could see some lip service being paid to the idea that, at least unofficially, scaling the .stl files down to 4e scale should be workable.

I think that's about the maximum 4e can expect to see in terms of official support going forward.
<smacks forehead> I didn't even consider scaling down existring "hot wheels" scale files... Must be going senile.

Thanks so much for that prompt - it gives me a lot to work with.

Cheers,
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Old 09-26-2022, 03:17 PM   #6
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Find an architectural-model-supply store; look up "1/200-scale". You'll find a lot of minis for low cost (I think I've seen mixed 100-packs for ~$30; but I'm not sure it's within forum rules to post links to same).
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Old 10-06-2022, 04:41 AM   #7
Nestyr
 
Join Date: May 2021
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

TL,DR, for the below: image scales on counters have been fudged. Retaining the 1”=15’ (or 1:180 scale, or “Heroic” 10mm scale) scale of the counter, I am asking whether changing the scale of objects to 1:220, for everything, would be acceptable, when printing miniatures, to be mounted on bases in the “standard” (1:180) scale of the game.

Hi all,

Tragically replying to my own post, and having spent a good deal of time measuring dimensions of vehicles on counters, comparing them to RL counterparts, I believe I have discovered something, which the community in general may already be aware of:

There has been a great deal of fudging in the sizes of the counter artwork.

Two examples:

There is a counter for a classic, yellow VW Beetle, which I believe is from the combustion engine hot rods counter sheet. The image is roughly one third the length of a counter. Which means it should be around 5’ in length. In reality, the average length of the classic Beetle is 13’. The image on the counter, therefore, should take up most of the length, then, as the counter represents a length of 15’.

Additionally, the average lengths for mid-sized and larger cars starts at over 15’, so they should not fit on a standard car base of 1”*1/2” (again, where 1”=15’).

Now, I can appreciate some fudging being done, for the sake of gameplay, in order to keep the “standard” base size to 1”*1/2”. However, my ASD finds this problematic, especially when I am looking at using miniatures in the “standard” Car Wars scale (which, incidentally is a scale of 1:180, or “Heroic” 10mm miniature scale).

In order for accurately-scaled images of vehicles to fit on this “standard” base size, the scale of these images needs to be corrected, and consistent. The next “common” scale of 1:200 (or 8mm) is still *just* a bit too large for vehicle images on the larger size to fit on the base. The next subsequent “common” scale would be 1:300 (or 6mm), and this is far too small, making smaller vehicles appear comically small on the counters.

After some experimentation, I believe the best scale for the images would be 1:220 (very roughly around 7.8mm scale - I haven’t done the math yet…). All cars fit comfortably on the car counters, cycles fit on cycle counters, etc. Larger vehicles look fine, and smaller vehicles do not appear to be any more comical than usual.

Why does this matter?

Ultimately, it doesn’t.

However, as I am working on making suitably-sized “realistically” dimensionally accurate miniatures, for these earlier versions of the game (and my autistic brain is having apoplexy, with the mixed scale sizes), I thought it would be good to determine a scale which would work, across the board, for all the things depicted on counters in the game.

So, what do you think? If the 1”*1/2” scale for the base sizes is retained, is a 1:220 scale suitable for things to be put on these counters/ bases?

Cheers,
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Old 10-06-2022, 01:07 PM   #8
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

I applaud you for your endeavours, petty fogging consistency is the enemy of expediency but if all you have to do is measuring and maths at design time, why wouldn't you try to be consistent?

Of course the yellow car you identified isn't actually a classic VW beetle at all. It is a subcompact styled on the VW beetle but scaled down to the 5ft you measured it at. All those graphics are just pictures chosen for artistic reasons, not representations of actual vehicles. In reality a subcompact should be about half the length of a luxury car not 2/3 as depicted on the counters. A Smart car is 8.5ft and realistically about as small as you can get (since a sub-compact doesn't have to be a go-cart) and even at the 1" scale should be over 1/2" long. The VW Beetle is classed as a compact.

If you convert MPH to inches per second changing the scale doesn't really work. 10 MPH is 14.6 ft per second, it is pretty close to the 15ft that 1" represents using the conventional scale (which is why that scale was chosen).

If you want to fix the size of the scale car for realism you should instead change the size of the counter/base rather than change the scale to fit a 1 x .5 counter. That way the movement scale stays correct and you don't need to mess with movement keys etc. Putting a model on a different size base is trivial compared to redesigning the movement system.

You may know that 5th edition did use different sized counters for the various vehicle sizes, whereas earlier and now later versions have a standard size counter (for cars at least) and just vary the artwork. Different counter sizes doesn't make it any harder to move the counters (cycles, 10 wheelers and helicopters etc. don't use 1 x .5" counters anyway). It has the additional benefit of making collisions a bit more logical and determining if you could put a cycle up an narrow alley trivial. Handling a 1/2" counter however might be a bit fiddly (which was less of an issue with 5th as it was 3x or hot wheels scale). Using the standard scale a minicooper would be 2/3", a midsize 1" and a large pickup might tip 1 1/4". A 40" trailer should really be 2 2/3" but 1 1/2" for the tractor doesn't look far off (but it might be a little wider than 1/2").

If you do change the scale (and say the interval between turns is not a second but whatever fraction of a second it needs to make 1" of movement equate to 10 mph), I would recommend 1:240 scale instead of 1:220. It will make the maths easier and won't horrendously bend the images off your plan as you have a nice factor of 12 in there which means you just need to divide your real world length in feet by 20 to get it in scale inches. It is a slightly messy as a metric scale, but then metric to imperial scales are a bit messy anyway.

A 40ft trailer would be 2" exactly, a realistic subcompact (mini cooper) 1/2", a compact 3/4", a midsize 3/4". You could fit up to 20ft of car onto a 1" counter and 30ft of truck on a 1.5" counter. There is complication as the EPA categories are based on volume rather than purely length and the length, width and height are not necessarily in the same proportions between categories let alone between vehicles within a category.

Last edited by swordtart; 10-06-2022 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 10-06-2022, 08:42 PM   #9
Nestyr
 
Join Date: May 2021
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

Thanks for replying, swordtart,

I did some “internet research”, and discovered the following averages for vehicle sizes (apologies for the non-existent formatting - I am writing this on an iPad…).

Average Lengths of Different Vehicles
||1:180 scale (10mm)
||"Official Car Wars Scale"
Vehicle | Feet | In inches
Small cycle | 6 1/4 | 3/7
Medium cycle | 6 2/3 | 4/9
Large cycle | 7 1/2 | 1/2
Subcompact | 8 6/7 | 3/5
VW Beetle | 13 3/8 | 8/9
Compact | 13 4/9 | 8/9
Mid-sized sedan | 14 3/4 | 1
Gyrocopter | 15 3/7 | 1
Large sedan | 15 2/3 | 1
Van | 16 4/7 | 1 1/9
Luxury | 16 3/4 | 1 1/9
Pickup | 17 | 1 1/7
Formula One | 18 | 1 1/5
Large Pickup | 18 5/7 | 1 1/4
Dragster | 25 | 1 2/3
30' anything | 30 | 2
40' anything | 40 | 2 2/3
"Transport helicopter" | 53 | 3 1/2
Semi-Trailer Cab | 50 6/7 | 3 2/5
Semi-Trailer container | 48 | 3 1/5
Semi-Trailer Tank | 42 2/3 | 2 5/6

So, starting from the mid-sized, through to the large pickup, the vehicles are all too large to fit on the standard vehicle base.

Rather than mess around, and have to redo/ reprint roads, etc, and to not have to make changes to the existing movement rules, I plan to leave the counter/ base sizes as they are, but use images/ models scaled to 1:220, on the “standard” bases, for the sake of consistency, and so they all fit on their usual counter sizes/ bases.

At a scale of 1:220, the images/ models would be scaled as follows:

Average Lengths of Different Vehicles
|1:220 scale (~7.8mm)
Vehicle | Inches | mm
Small cycle |1/3 | 0.87
Medium cycle | 3/8 | 0.92
Large cycle | 2/5 | 1.04
Subcompact | 1/2 | 1.23
VW Beetle | 3/4 | 1.85
Compact | 3/4 | 1.86
Mid-sized sedan | 4/5 | 2.05
Gyrocopter | 5/6 | 2.14
Large sedan | 6/7 | 2.18
Van | 1 | 2.30
Luxury | 1 | 2.32
Pickup | 1 | 2.36
Formula One | 1 | 2.50
Large Pickup | 1 | 2.59
Dragster | 1 1/3 | 3.46
30' anything | 1 2/3 | 4.16
40' anything | 2 1/5 | 5.54
"Transport helicopter" | 2 8/9 | 7.33
Semi-Trailer Cab | 2 7/9 | 7.05
Semi-Trailer container | 2 5/8 | 6.65
Semi-Trailer Tank | 2 1/3 | 5.91

As you can see, the large pickup is the only “car” that does not fit on a standard base. This length is an average, though, so I am happy for them to go to the very edge of the counter/ base, and call it a day.

Once you start going smaller, vehicles start to look out of place on the standard counter - especially the smaller vehicles - and resin printed models lose a great deal of detail.

I really don’t want to mess about with changing the counter sizes, or altering the rules for movement - I just want the counter/ models to appear consistent in size.

I hope this makes sense. I don’t think I was very clear the first time.

Cheers,
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Old 10-07-2022, 01:46 AM   #10
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Minis for Classic Car Wars?

I think your mm values are actually cm - 0.84 mm is very small :)

I understand your aim, I just think you are looking at it the wrong way. If you are making a scale model then you make it to the same scale as the terrain which is tied to the movement system and which is 180th scale.

Unless you are using a grid there is no disadvantage in using different sized bases. You could also use a 1 1/2" base as the standard if you want to got that way and the rules already cover those. Personally I prefer the base to occupy the footprint of the vehicle so that I can better asses ranges and collisions (but that is my particular OCD).

You are also using "realistic" sizes for vehicles, but these relate to modern vehicles and CW vehicles are retro-future. The van trailer is not 48ft long, it is 40ft long, it states that explicitly in the rules. Rather than trying to adjust the scale to fit your worldview you could simply adjust your worldview to fit the scale (and worldview) you have been given.

The rules don't say how long a 2035 compact is, but it isn't the same length that a 2022 compact is. We know this because in the chassis and crossbow rules it notes that 2035 duelling cars aren't as "roomy" as the C&C cars (i.e. 80s-90s at the time), penetrating bullets can pass through C&C cars without hitting internal components.

In an Austin Mini (10 ft long), you could fit 4 people (The 2 of front ones have full leg room and thus are arguably 2 spaces each), an 80 cid gas plant and some cargo (4.2 cu ft not including the cargo bins in the doors). You can't fit all that into a subcompact so a CW subcompact is a somewhat smaller than a Mini. As artwork in the VGs tends to show more rectangular slab sided vehicles the setting is telling you that your CW subcompact would be shorter still as the Mini's engine extension should be merged into the main body of the vehicle (the Mini should probably classed as streamlined in CW terms).

I am also autistic and I have found that you can't always "fix" the broken rules. Sometimes the right solution is to follow a new rule which is "that the rules don't apply here".

Obviously you are free to follow your own path but given the lack of detail you are going to be able to achieve in even a 180th scale vehicle, reducing the scale still further to 1:220 seems a lot of effort for no actual benefit and actually introducing different inconsistency.

Last edited by swordtart; 10-07-2022 at 10:49 AM.
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