Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack?

Yabsa3 · 03-17-2009, 10:20 PM

Forgive me if this question has been answered in a previous thread, but I couldn't seem to locate an answer to this specific matter... Can a character with weapon mounts or extra arms, who is equipped with ranged weapons, coordinate their fire as part of a single attack action, thereby not needing to buy either extra attack or come up with some kind of 'however many weapons I can carry-weapon attack technique?' To clarify: when I say 'coordinate their fire' I mean treat the fire of all the weapons in question as a single attack with a ROF equal to the number of weapons used times the number of shots fired from each. Obviously this would be difficult unless the weapons were all identical, (thinking back to previous threads on how to figure out just what parts of an automatic attack hit.) Extra arms has the provision that the extra limbs or mounts can be used for a single combat maneuver, and would seem to support this interpretation, however it is not explicitly stated and I am interested in how others might handle the matter. Would it be more appropriate to make the character take a technique to do this? A perk perhaps?

the_matrix_walker · 03-17-2009, 10:29 PM

Sorry to chime in without knowing if this has been answered in another thread, but my 2 cents...

Personally I'd rule that a player couldn't make a single roll to represent sifferent weapons like this. I'd say they would have to take a variation of the dual weapon attack technique. The default would be an additional -2 from that maneuver for each additional weapon mount/arm. Triple weapon attack would default to prerequisite skill-6, Quadruple weapon attack would default to prerequisite skill-8 etc...

If they didn't like that I'd tell em to buy Extra Attacks,

If they were insistant thay wanted ONE roll, I would say, fine, buy it as an innate attack with total cumulative rapid fire they want with appropriate gadget limitations for the weapons, and maybe a little-bitty extra limitation for needing 3-6 arms to get the job done

Yabsa3 · 03-17-2009, 10:48 PM

Thanks for the reply, though the progression you suggest strikes me as rather harsh. In High-Tech the precedent is set that linked weapons, using the ROFxWeapons=Effective ROF of the Attack have no skill penalty whatsoever (HT, p.229) Consider the following: I've made a sentient fighter plane as my character, complete with weapon mounts, and I've got eight machineguns loaded presently. With your provision, I've got an octuple(?) weapon attack technique at -16. A player whose just a pilot flying a similar aircraft, modelled as equipment, gets no penalty whatsoever. Thus, would it not be more reasonable to just charge the character for the perk 'Zeroed Weapons?' which allows him to treat his weapon mounts, so long as they bear the same weapons, as linked, as per HT229? I'll concede that actual Extra Arms, not Weapon Mounts, might require a more costly investment of points.

Kelly Pedersen · 03-17-2009, 11:04 PM

I'd take a cue from Link, basically. If the Weapon Mounts are always in "linked fire" mode, and can't be independently targeted at all, that's +10%. If they can be set to a separate mode where they can track independently, that's +20%.

Crakkerjakk · 03-17-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yabsa3

Thanks for the reply, though the progression you suggest strikes me as rather harsh. In High-Tech the precedent is set that linked weapons, using the ROFxWeapons=Effective ROF of the Attack have no skill penalty whatsoever (HT, p.229) Consider the following: I've made a sentient fighter plane as my character, complete with weapon mounts, and I've got eight machineguns loaded presently. With your provision, I've got an octuple(?) weapon attack technique at -16. A player whose just a pilot flying a similar aircraft, modelled as equipment, gets no penalty whatsoever. Thus, would it not be more reasonable to just charge the character for the perk 'Zeroed Weapons?' which allows him to treat his weapon mounts, so long as they bear the same weapons, as linked, as per HT229? I'll concede that actual Extra Arms, not Weapon Mounts, might require a more costly investment of points.

Alternatively, the plane's machine gun attack is modeled as an innate attack. Honestly, this smacks a little of munchkinism. Not saying that;s the player's intent, but anything involving multiple attacks and point savings makes me look more closely at what is being asked for. There's got to be a rule about targeting the same hit location with two swings. Nothing in MA?

the_matrix_walker · 03-17-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yabsa3

In High-Tech the precedent is set that linked weapons, using the ROFxWeapons=Effective ROF of the Attack have no skill penalty whatsoever (HT, p.229) Consider the following: I've made a sentient fighter plane as my character, complete with weapon mounts, and I've got eight machineguns loaded presently.

Ahh, ok, this is a little different than Doc Oc with a bunch of machine guns... sorry, I don't generally build vehicles as characters, so I probably should have just left this one alone ;)

I was focusing on the idea of flexible arms, not hardpoints...
I'd probably be asking more questions than providing answers continuing this, but just a shot in the dark...

When you build a vehicle as a character, do you have to buy it's guns as innate attacks? If you do, then this is built in already, just buy your innate attack at the desired ROF and it can be as many guns contributing as you want!

Sorry to pollute your thread, I'll step out and let someone who knows what they're talking about take it ;)

Yabsa3 · 03-17-2009, 11:22 PM

It would appear my own example is derailing my thread, I was merely using the fighter as an example of a 'character' that had lots of guns, a better example probably would have been a fighting robot with miniguns attached to the side of its head or something, but I digress. To respond to the above: Link seems to be the most reasonable, both points- and rules-wise, I feel kind of dense for not thinking of that, despite using the word 'linked' repeatedly in my prior posts. To respond to Crakkerjakk: the intent of this is not to give a hypothetical character more attacks within a turn, its to give a character with multiple guns the ROF bonus they logically should get from blazing away with however many guns their character can bring to bear simultaneously.

Edit: Though the use of a Link enhancement doesn't seem to reconcile with the clause that Extra Arms can apparently be used for a single combat action... Perhaps it's implicit that the Extra Arms/Weapons Mounts are already linked? Admittedly the example used is for grappling with all the arms, but would using all of ones weapons mounts not also fall under the category (with the obvious provision that all the weapons are being used for a single attack action as outlined previously).

baakyocalder · 03-17-2009, 11:48 PM

The Enhanced Tracking advantage (B53) allows aiming at multiple targets. Extra Arms (B53) is quite clear that Extra Attack must be bought for each arm.

How to build vehicles seem to be one of the problem areas of GURPS 4e. If I wanted an F6F Hellcat, my favorite plane, it's different if it's sentient with weapons, has certain special abilities, or is just an ordinary Hellcat from World War II. Even the Ally enhancement in Supers (pages 84-85) presumes some stock vehicle with modifiers; there are few stock vehicles.

A sentient hellcat is a character, like C31R07, the example robot character on B307-309. C31R07 has Enhanced Tracking and Extra Arms for his weapon pods. C31R07 can fire either a chain gun or plasma cannon attack, as he has alternative attacks. Each weapon pod can be fired and aimed independently. Following this line of thought, Enhanced Tracking and Extra Attack are required for robots to shoot multiple targets with mounted weapons.

Now, if the Hellcat merely had the 3 .50 caliber machine guns in each wing and some range enhancements through say, a Superscience Reduced Consumption engine, it would have a value as an Ally and cost points, because it has powers. . . It's not so clear to me whether the weapons would be computed on a character point or cash basis since they are standard weapons for the TL.

A standard Hellcat upgraded with a TL9 engine or even TL9 radar, is still a Hellcat unless any increase in gear from the base model's TL is considered to make it built as a character.

A completely unmodified Hellcat is just gear-it costs points if you want one as Signature Gear so it's not just taken away by the GM.

Unless you're looking for compatibility, the best way would be to find how the vehicle works best in your campaign*

If everyone's playing sentient machines, well I wouldn't worry so much about the properties of the machines that ordinary technology gives them. A sentient fighter aircraft would probably have some armaments and linked fixed firing guns on the Hellcat are going to disperse anyways (even if all aimed at the same target). A sentient bulldozer PC should, well, have a bulldozer blade as a feature. A sentient submarine, should be pressurized and probably should not have a convertible hardtop.

Link seems the most appropriate way to handle the jet fighter's attacks-it's one routine. If you want to aim at more than one target, buy Enhanced Tracking. If you want to hit more than one target, Ranged Rapid Fire is in High-Tech.

*Until a new edition of Vehicles comes out and solves the design issues for vehicles with clear rules on whether sentient vehicles are characters or cash for building purposes.

the_matrix_walker · 03-18-2009, 12:03 AM

ok, mayne 2 more cents...

They say under extra arms you can use a shield and a two handed sword. you could probably use a shield and two one handed swords and make a dual weapon attack.

The biggest blockade to my just saying "okay" to multiple mounts combining RoF is that dual weapon attack:SMG requires two attack rolls (at it's technique penalty), and you don't combine the RoF.... Buying extra arms certainly doesn't include a feature that makes them any more linked than the ones you start with.

Maybe my -2 climbing penalty is too harsh, but i think it's the right track for something like this. Either that, or skip the mounts all together and just buy an innate attck patterned after the waepon you want, with a RoF to the combined amount, and the special effect that it erupts from points all over your robot/cyborged/freaked out bod ;)

weby · 03-18-2009, 12:15 AM

As said above the link advantage seems to be what is needed:

From it
"If you link two attacks into one and give them identical Malf., 1/2D, Max, Acc, RoF, Shots, and Recoil, you can treat them as a single attack with one attack roll but separate rolls for damage."

So if you want the weapons to be fireable together as single attack on single target allways buy +10% link. If you also want to be able to fire them separately use the +20% version.

Note that in the first case if you wanted to attack multiple targets you would need to use one of the autofire options to spread the attack.

In the second you could unlink them and do a dual attack.

For WWII fighterplanes that have linked forwardfiring machineguns they would have a +10% linked. This does not matter if it is a sentient plane or the pilot making the attack roll..

03-17-2009, 10:20 PM	#1
Yabsa3 Join Date: Jan 2009	Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? Forgive me if this question has been answered in a previous thread, but I couldn't seem to locate an answer to this specific matter... Can a character with weapon mounts or extra arms, who is equipped with ranged weapons, coordinate their fire as part of a single attack action, thereby not needing to buy either extra attack or come up with some kind of 'however many weapons I can carry-weapon attack technique?' To clarify: when I say 'coordinate their fire' I mean treat the fire of all the weapons in question as a single attack with a ROF equal to the number of weapons used times the number of shots fired from each. Obviously this would be difficult unless the weapons were all identical, (thinking back to previous threads on how to figure out just what parts of an automatic attack hit.) Extra arms has the provision that the extra limbs or mounts can be used for a single combat maneuver, and would seem to support this interpretation, however it is not explicitly stated and I am interested in how others might handle the matter. Would it be more appropriate to make the character take a technique to do this? A perk perhaps?

03-17-2009, 10:29 PM	#2
the_matrix_walker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Lynn, MA	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? Sorry to chime in without knowing if this has been answered in another thread, but my 2 cents... Personally I'd rule that a player couldn't make a single roll to represent sifferent weapons like this. I'd say they would have to take a variation of the dual weapon attack technique. The default would be an additional -2 from that maneuver for each additional weapon mount/arm. Triple weapon attack would default to prerequisite skill-6, Quadruple weapon attack would default to prerequisite skill-8 etc... If they didn't like that I'd tell em to buy Extra Attacks, If they were insistant thay wanted ONE roll, I would say, fine, buy it as an innate attack with total cumulative rapid fire they want with appropriate gadget limitations for the weapons, and maybe a little-bitty extra limitation for needing 3-6 arms to get the job done Last edited by the_matrix_walker; 03-17-2009 at 10:34 PM.

03-17-2009, 10:48 PM	#3
Yabsa3 Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? Thanks for the reply, though the progression you suggest strikes me as rather harsh. In High-Tech the precedent is set that linked weapons, using the ROFxWeapons=Effective ROF of the Attack have no skill penalty whatsoever (HT, p.229) Consider the following: I've made a sentient fighter plane as my character, complete with weapon mounts, and I've got eight machineguns loaded presently. With your provision, I've got an octuple(?) weapon attack technique at -16. A player whose just a pilot flying a similar aircraft, modelled as equipment, gets no penalty whatsoever. Thus, would it not be more reasonable to just charge the character for the perk 'Zeroed Weapons?' which allows him to treat his weapon mounts, so long as they bear the same weapons, as linked, as per HT229? I'll concede that actual Extra Arms, not Weapon Mounts, might require a more costly investment of points.

03-17-2009, 11:04 PM	#4
Kelly Pedersen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? I'd take a cue from Link, basically. If the Weapon Mounts are always in "linked fire" mode, and can't be independently targeted at all, that's +10%. If they can be set to a separate mode where they can track independently, that's +20%.

03-17-2009, 11:22 PM	#7
Yabsa3 Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? It would appear my own example is derailing my thread, I was merely using the fighter as an example of a 'character' that had lots of guns, a better example probably would have been a fighting robot with miniguns attached to the side of its head or something, but I digress. To respond to the above: Link seems to be the most reasonable, both points- and rules-wise, I feel kind of dense for not thinking of that, despite using the word 'linked' repeatedly in my prior posts. To respond to Crakkerjakk: the intent of this is not to give a hypothetical character more attacks within a turn, its to give a character with multiple guns the ROF bonus they logically should get from blazing away with however many guns their character can bring to bear simultaneously. Edit: Though the use of a Link enhancement doesn't seem to reconcile with the clause that Extra Arms can apparently be used for a single combat action... Perhaps it's implicit that the Extra Arms/Weapons Mounts are already linked? Admittedly the example used is for grappling with all the arms, but would using all of ones weapons mounts not also fall under the category (with the obvious provision that all the weapons are being used for a single attack action as outlined previously). Last edited by Yabsa3; 03-17-2009 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Thought about this for 1 extra second...

03-17-2009, 11:48 PM	#8
baakyocalder Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Sacramento metro, California	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? The Enhanced Tracking advantage (B53) allows aiming at multiple targets. Extra Arms (B53) is quite clear that Extra Attack must be bought for each arm. How to build vehicles seem to be one of the problem areas of GURPS 4e. If I wanted an F6F Hellcat, my favorite plane, it's different if it's sentient with weapons, has certain special abilities, or is just an ordinary Hellcat from World War II. Even the Ally enhancement in Supers (pages 84-85) presumes some stock vehicle with modifiers; there are few stock vehicles. A sentient hellcat is a character, like C31R07, the example robot character on B307-309. C31R07 has Enhanced Tracking and Extra Arms for his weapon pods. C31R07 can fire either a chain gun or plasma cannon attack, as he has alternative attacks. Each weapon pod can be fired and aimed independently. Following this line of thought, Enhanced Tracking and Extra Attack are required for robots to shoot multiple targets with mounted weapons. Now, if the Hellcat merely had the 3 .50 caliber machine guns in each wing and some range enhancements through say, a Superscience Reduced Consumption engine, it would have a value as an Ally and cost points, because it has powers. . . It's not so clear to me whether the weapons would be computed on a character point or cash basis since they are standard weapons for the TL. A standard Hellcat upgraded with a TL9 engine or even TL9 radar, is still a Hellcat unless any increase in gear from the base model's TL is considered to make it built as a character. A completely unmodified Hellcat is just gear-it costs points if you want one as Signature Gear so it's not just taken away by the GM. Unless you're looking for compatibility, the best way would be to find how the vehicle works best in your campaign* If everyone's playing sentient machines, well I wouldn't worry so much about the properties of the machines that ordinary technology gives them. A sentient fighter aircraft would probably have some armaments and linked fixed firing guns on the Hellcat are going to disperse anyways (even if all aimed at the same target). A sentient bulldozer PC should, well, have a bulldozer blade as a feature. A sentient submarine, should be pressurized and probably should not have a convertible hardtop. Link seems the most appropriate way to handle the jet fighter's attacks-it's one routine. If you want to aim at more than one target, buy Enhanced Tracking. If you want to hit more than one target, Ranged Rapid Fire is in High-Tech. *Until a new edition of Vehicles comes out and solves the design issues for vehicles with clear rules on whether sentient vehicles are characters or cash for building purposes. __________________ Currently Running: Without Number family games which use a lot of GURPS material for details when the players start asking(online, sporadically) Waiting For: Schedule Sanity to Play Car Wars and my Fnordcon special alt Car Wars cards!

03-18-2009, 12:03 AM	#9
the_matrix_walker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Lynn, MA	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? ok, mayne 2 more cents... They say under extra arms you can use a shield and a two handed sword. you could probably use a shield and two one handed swords and make a dual weapon attack. The biggest blockade to my just saying "okay" to multiple mounts combining RoF is that dual weapon attack:SMG requires two attack rolls (at it's technique penalty), and you don't combine the RoF.... Buying extra arms certainly doesn't include a feature that makes them any more linked than the ones you start with. Maybe my -2 climbing penalty is too harsh, but i think it's the right track for something like this. Either that, or skip the mounts all together and just buy an innate attck patterned after the waepon you want, with a RoF to the combined amount, and the special effect that it erupts from points all over your robot/cyborged/freaked out bod ;)

03-18-2009, 12:15 AM	#10
weby Join Date: Oct 2008	Re: Many Weapon Mounts, Single Attack? As said above the link advantage seems to be what is needed: From it "If you link two attacks into one and give them identical Malf., 1/2D, Max, Acc, RoF, Shots, and Recoil, you can treat them as a single attack with one attack roll but separate rolls for damage." So if you want the weapons to be fireable together as single attack on single target allways buy +10% link. If you also want to be able to fire them separately use the +20% version. Note that in the first case if you wanted to attack multiple targets you would need to use one of the autofire options to spread the attack. In the second you could unlink them and do a dual attack. For WWII fighterplanes that have linked forwardfiring machineguns they would have a +10% linked. This does not matter if it is a sentient plane or the pilot making the attack roll..