Manifest Of the Cult of Stat-Normalization?

[the_seeker]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

The point about 1cp = enormous skill, well I kind of agree, but that would mess with the values of atributes too much. And a solution is bound to be less elegant than that one for defaults. Does the Cult of Stat Normalization have a webpage yet? :P

That's what has confounded me. My HR for fixing Default Skill Levels can be implemented seamlessly because it is simple and easy to remember, but my HR for buying Skill Levels up from Default remains unimplemented because I have failed to think of a way to do so that doesn't seem clunky at best.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

The point about 1cp = enormous skill, well I kind of agree, but that would mess with the values of attributes too much. And a solution is bound to be less elegant than that one for defaults.

Not really, the straightforward solution is to equate 1cp = default+4.

So the person with IQ/DX 16 has defaults of:
Easy ((/2)+1) = 9
Average (/2) = 8
Hard ((/2)-1) = 7
Very Hard ((/2)-2 ) = 6

For 1 cp the person with IQ/DX 16 has skills of:
Easy (d+4) = 13
Average (d+4)) = 12
Hard (d+4) = 11
Very Hard (d+4) = 10

Hopefully Kromm will use something like that for both defaults and skills when 5e comes out and we can then put the Cult of Stat-Normalization out of their misery. *grin*

[Qoltar]

Originally Posted by martinl

........
That said, no one says you have to follow The Cult. Really, IMHO, it is mostly useful to make GURPS Mundane Folks work out better. If, like most gamers, you play GURPS Wild Crazy Far Out Heros, just don't worry about it.

martinl

I want that supplement or pdf.

There really should be something called -

GURPS:Wild Crazy Far Out Heroes

Heck, my campaign may someday turn into that if I'm not careful.
Then again, that could be fun.

- Ed Charlton

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

In a contest of skills between any two characters, the one with the most points in their skill should win.

In a contest of attributes, the one with the most points in their attribute should win...

No, that does not meet any type of reality check.

Any strong dexterous amateur can wipe the floor with any weak clumsy expert.

The silly cliche of the weak slow martial arts master is just that, a silly cliche, a real armed or unarmed martial arts master will be both strong and fast.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

No, that does not meet any type of reality check.

Any strong dexterous amateur can wipe the floor with any weak clumsy expert.

The silly cliche of the weak slow martial arts master is just that, a silly cliche, a real unarmed martial arts master will be both strong and fast.

It is worth noting that the cliche of the weak but agile character (low ST, high DX) is also a silly cliche. Someone who is fast will necessarily be strong for their size, and often strong even in absolute terms. A 98-lb gymnast might well have ST 11.

[DryaUnda]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I'd like to hear more from the stat normalizers.

Okay, here are my assumptions:

• Humans can't go above 15 in an attribute without sufficiently advanced magic or technology. ST may be an exception to this, with a maximum at ~16-18. While ST would be the easiest to figure out due to it's readily quantifiable effects, it's not likely to be the focus of any theories (see player IQ below).

• Humans can't have more than 24 points per skill, again waiveable via SAMoT. I only arrived at this figure from a question I asked Luther, however, as comparatively little data has been gathered in this area (again, see player IQ below).

• From what I can surmise, the primary motivation for research in the field of stat normalization can be summed up as "what's my GURPS IQ?" Ken Hite's comment about "arguments about what George's IQ really is" (textbox in p.IW184) sums up this view nicely.

• Before we go any further, especially with bell curves and Gaussian distributions, we need to take into account other mental variables besides IQ. Advantages, disadvantages, skills, and Talents all factor into defining mental ability.

• PCs adhere to the maximums but not to statistical distributions, unless the local universe does not require plausibility.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Er... I was just adding to your point of how it's not relatable, and pointing out to everybody what some specific points were that prevented relation. And how, in fact, as you say, you're scale doesn't correspond to GURPS IQ, just like real life "general intelligence" doesn't relate to IQ scores. No need to get defensive.
Sorry if it sounded like an attack, I just wanted nail it a bit more. Nothing personal.

Ah. Your tone made me think that you thought you were refuting me, and indeed that you were doing so with harshly critical intent. The right sort of transition word at the start—"Indeed" or "Continuing that line of reasoning" or "I would add that"—might work, though you would do better to find one that sounds like you than copy my verbal tics—might have avoided the misunderstanding.

Thanks for the clarification. Apology accepted.

Bill Stoddard

[the_seeker]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not really, the straightforward solution is to equate 1cp = default+4.

CPs Spent................... D 1 2 4 8 12 16 20
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 10 5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 11 5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 12 6 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 13 6 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 14 7 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Avg Skill for [Attribute] 15 7 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

See the problem?

For some, [Attribute] N gives enough other benefits that being equal to [Attribute] N-1 regarding Skill Levels is insignificant (and GURPS does have a RAW policy of almost always rounding fractions down). For others, however, this will be sufficient reason to reject the HR in favor of RAW because they simply must have those Skill Levels. It wouldn't bother me, but different strokes for different folks.

I do think we're fishing in the right pond, however...

[smurf]

If you want a character to have a 15 in karate it costs x. Period. 24 points if you have a dx 10. 24 points if you have a dx 15.

Why not do away with stats all together then and just have skills?

It appears that to have a stat above 10 is pointless in this cult why bother having stats.

If you say that stats increase your reaction (like DX) then just buy increased reaction.

If somebody is good at something just give them an advantage like +3 mechanic or a schtick.

None of this, "well my character is agile so he's better at karate." That's immaterial and antithetical to the genericness factor of GURPS namesake. If you want to be agile, pay the points. If you want to be good at karate pay the points. I don't see why you should get some kind of point break for having attribute/skill synergies.

Er yes agility does play a role, my friend has a physcial disability, if we were both to learn Karate and he put in say 4 times more than me, I'd still wup his ass.

have you seen the pts cost for skill vs stats

DX 14 (modest super hero stuff) = 80pts + karate @ DX = 4pts

without stats = 16pts, in this instance you could buy 5-6 similar skills before losing out.

I don't know what to do about defaults. I suppose if you are willing to have a character with an attribute of 15, you are going to have quite a few skills at 10 or 11 for free.... I tend to limit defaults appropriately. People get a default to many skills - but unless you put points into it, you are "fiddling your way through;" and the quality of your work is going to be lacking in comparison of someone with equal skill with points invested.

defaults would be simple, everybody will default from 10. Everybody will be the same, if they can't do it then they best GSI (get someone in)

Note I thought defaults maxed out at 16! Yes defaults are those skills that are not listed because when you bump into them and you may have a chance of completing the task:

Changing a tyre anyone? Mechanic (+4 easy task), all correct tools present +4, IQ -5 = lets give it an IQ12 - 5 = 7+8 = 15, I'd say that was about right, and poor tools (bad brace) a lesser chance. At default of 10-5 + 8 would give higher results of failure. Of course if they had Mechanic for cars you would just say they pass

In a contest of skills between any two characters, the one with the most points in their skill should win.

I think in the rules it does say that, in feinting anyway. But yes it would get rid of ties.

You play your game how you want to play it, but it appears to be a folly.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not really, the straightforward solution is to equate 1cp = default+4.

You realize that this solution is functionally equivalent to just doubling the cost of IQ/DX?