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Old 04-22-2021, 04:40 PM   #1
Hyrneson
 
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Default AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

I have done a reasonable search across the interweb and these forums and I cannot find my answer so now I throw it open to the wisdom of the masses.
I have a player wanting to convert his AD&D character to GURPS. Working out the equivalence for the other disciplines is easy, but is there a GURPS Psionic equivalent to the AD&D attacks and defenses?
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

AD&D psionic combat is crazy-complicated compared to anything GURPS does with psionics. I think you won't find any built-in rules that come even close to mimicking it. You might build some Maledictions that do what the attack modes superficially say they do, but you won't get the results from the AD&D tables, where two psychics stare at each other and concentrate until one of them burns out and ends up a without psionic power, a gibbering fool, or dead.

I'd be curious to see someone's attempt to do it justice, though.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrneson View Post
I have done a reasonable search across the interweb and these forums and I cannot find my answer so now I throw it open to the wisdom of the masses.
I have a player wanting to convert his AD&D character to GURPS. Working out the equivalence for the other disciplines is easy, but is there a GURPS Psionic equivalent to the AD&D attacks and defenses?
I'm assuming AD&D Psionics as described in the 1st Edition Player's Handbook and converting to GURPS Psionics for 3rd Edition. It'll give you a reference point if you need to convert for to GURPS Psionic Powers for 4th Edition. Page references beginning P indicate GURPS Psionics, CI indicates GURPS Compendium I.

As Stormcrow noted the correspondences aren't perfect but they do match up well in terms of what they say the psi is doing for attack and/or defense.

Psionic Blast = Mental Blow [p. P21]
Mind Thrust = Mental Blow vs. Central Nervous System [p. P21 & Aiming Mental Blows [p. P38]
Ego Whip = Mental Blow vs. The Ego [p. P21] & Aiming Mental Blows [p. P38]
Id Insinuation = Global use of Suggest (which requires high Power) or Suggest (which requires targeting successive individuals with the attack, but still works as a corresponding equivalent, given the difference in time scales between the two games) [p. P24]
Psychic Crush = Mental Stab [p. P22]

Mind Blank = Mind Shield Power 20 [p. P22]
Thought Shield = Mind Shield [p. P22]
Mental Barrier = Mind Block skill [p. CI155]
Intellect Fortress = Mind Shield Power-7 extended range (2 hexes) (requires Power 8+) [p. P22 & sidebar Extending Shields p. P38]
Tower of Iron Will = Mind Shield Power-3 extended range (same hex) (requires Power 4+) [p. P22 & sidebar Extending Shields p. P38]

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 07-18-2022 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
AD&D psionic combat is crazy-complicated compared to anything GURPS does with psionics. I think you won't find any built-in rules that come even close to mimicking it. You might build some Maledictions that do what the attack modes superficially say they do, but you won't get the results from the AD&D tables, where two psychics stare at each other and concentrate until one of them burns out and ends up a without psionic power, a gibbering fool, or dead.

I'd be curious to see someone's attempt to do it justice, though.
I fully agree with AD&D1's psionic combat being insanely complicated. It sat in my "I don't use this" bucket along side the to hit AC modifier table and the nightmare that wer the grappling combat system.
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Old 04-22-2021, 10:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

I wasn't as clear as I thought but Curmudgeon figured it out and gave me a good starting point.
Thanks all!
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:04 AM   #6
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

I made a noticeable error for Intellect Fortress. For whatever reason I ended up with the Mind Shield extending only 2 hexes (6'), instead of AD&D's 10' radius.
Corrected, it should read:

Intellect Fortress = Mind Shield (Power -11) extended range (3 hexes) (requires Power 12+).

I've been thinking about porting the AD&D Attack & Defense Modes over to my games where GURPS Psionics would be in play, mostly because I like the names and I picked up on some of the similarities between Mind Shield and the various Defense Modes.

I am going to provide my reasoning for picking the equivalencies I did, mention items that were problematic for me, suggest possible builds and go out into house rule territory a bit. Obviously, my solutions/house rules may not appeal to you, but they may stir you to think, "Yeah, that's something I may want to address as well."

Psionic Blast says it is roughly equivalent to receiving "stunning news" and Mental Blow acting to stun the target answers quite well for that. It lacks the cone effect of Psionic Blast but that's actually a benefit to the player as all he needs is line of sight.

Mind Whip attempts to short out the synapses which is somewhat similar to the wording for Psychic Crush but less likely to kill the target, which matches up quite well with targeting the central nervous system with a mental blow. One difference in targeting the CNS is that a successful attack will reduce the target's DX rather than fatigue.

Ego Whip has the effect of overwhelming the target with either feelings of inferiority or of megalomania. Targeting Mental Blow against Ego really doesn't answer for this but the temptation to suggest it as a better replacement was too much for me. Using Suggest to create either emotional effect which is what I did for Id Insinuation keeps the effects available but renames them. You might want to switch the two effects for your game.

Id Insinuation is very vague as to its effects beyond being the only psionic attack that targets an area rather than an individual. I shifted Suggest down to be Id Insinuation as it most readily can be used to mimic an area attack (the distance covered is 20' x 20', so about 6x 6, maybe 7 x 7 hexes, 7 x 6 if you don't mind it being non-symmetric. If you prefer it to be circular, it's closest to a 4 hex radius.

Psychic Crush is meant to be lethal as is Mental Stab, so once again these work well as equivalents.

Mental Barrier represents minimizing an attack by only exposing a limited portion of your mind to attack, a wall of repetitious thought, which matches surprisingly well with the description for Mental Block. Mental Block isn't a psi skill as such, though it is meant to defend against mental attack. This is the only defense that a non-psi might have readily available. (Mages and Clerics might have spells which would help.)

Intellect Fortress and Tower of Iron Will as extended shield Mind Shields work for the area effect but are less effective as defenses than AD&D would have it. For myself, I just decided that it is what it is, preferring not to alter the GURPS mechanics beyond recognition.

Mind Blank = Mind Shield Power 20 is the easiest to justify as they are the only two respective defenses that mask the fact that the defender is a psi. The biggest problem is that anyone who has that "cloaking" ability will use it and I really didn't want to discourage its indiscriminate use by making it cost fatigue to use, which went against the flavour of the defense.

Mind Shield and my version of Id Insinuation are likely to be the most troublesome translations. Rather than try to raise Mind Shield to a uniform level of power, I decided to let Mind Shield, in general, be the same level of Power as Telepathy, (assuming the character has that power as a discipline/devotion). A perfectly legitimate build is to buy additional levels of Mind Shield as a One-Skill Power. For example, if Telepathy was Power 7, I could buy 13 levels of Mind Shield as a One-Skill Power to get my Mind Blank (Mind Shield 7 (from Telepathy) + 13 (from One-Skill Power) = Mind Shield 20. Since buying up Mind Shield can be expensive (13 levels would cost 26 points), Mind Blank won't necessarily be universal.

Suggest which lets you implant an emotion as a message is an okay solution for Id Insinuation but feels kludgy. I initially thought about using Low Self-Image [p. CI92] and Megalomania [p. B34] as temporary disadvantages but they don't really feel right and the point costs don't balance each other. After thinking about different pairings, such as Overconfidence and Cowardice, I decided to scrap the idea of using temporary disadvantages at all. Since the character has to penetrate the target's Mind Shield before he can use suggest, it would make sense to let the character spend one turn (one second) to make a quick assessment of the target (especially if the target is already in combat) to determine which effect would be more appropriate. While I could do that, I decided that I really wanted which effect occurred to depend entirely on the target. Thus, I set the target's response as Fight or Flight. If the target has anti-aggressive Disadvantages, particularly innate ones such as Cowardice rather than external ones such as Vow (which might be intended to get the target to change his current behaviour patterns), Id Insinuation will trigger as Flight. If he has aggressive disadvantages, such as Bully, it will trigger as Fight. If the character has no strong feelings either way, roll 1d6, 1-3= Flight, 4-6 = Fight. What the flavour text in AD&D suggested to me was that the low self-esteem individual would be more cautious, while the megalomaniac would be somewhat more reckless in his aggression. I intend to implement this by restricting the maneuvers available to the target. A target feeling Fight will take All-Out Attack on any turn he fails a Will roll, if he makes his Will roll he can choose to Attack and Defend. If the target is feeling Flight, it will chose All-Out Defense, unless a Will roll is made, in which case the target may choose Attack and Defend.

Suggest normally takes a single second as an attack and ends once the target either resists the suggestion or acts on it. In order to make it behave like an area attack, the effect needs to last longer. At the moment, I'm inclined to let the effect last for 2d6 seconds which averages out to 7 seconds, which is close to AD&D's 6-second segment. I'm also playing around with the idea of letting Strong Will subtract from the duration while Weak Will adds to it in place of rolling dice (and letting the duration be a flat 7 seconds otherwise, but right now, it seems like more trouble than it's worth.

I hope this helps and sorry about the error on Intellect Tower.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 04-23-2021 at 09:17 AM. Reason: replaced dropped words
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Psionic Blast = Mental Blow [p. P21]
Mind Thrust = Mental Blow vs. Central Nervous System [p. P21 & Aiming Mental Blows p. P38]
Ego Whip = Mental Blow vs. The Ego [p. P21 & Aiming Mental Blows p. P38]
Id Insinuation = Global use of Suggest (which requires high Power) or Suggest (which requires targeting successive individuals with the attack, but still works as a corresponding equivalent, given the difference in time scales between the two games) [p. P24]
Psychic Crush = Mental Stab [p. P22]

Mind Blank = Mind Shield Power 20 [p. P22]
Thought Shield = Mind Shield [p. P22]
Mental Barrier = Mind Block skill [p. CI155]
Intellect Fortress = Mind Shield Power-7 extended range (2 hexes) (requires Power 8+) [p. P22 & sidebar Extending Shields p. P38]
Tower of Iron Will = Mind Shield Power-3 extended range (same hex) (requires Power 4+) [p. P22 & sidebar Extending Shields p. P38]
GURPS Update lists the following conversions from third-edition psionics skills to fourth-edition psionic advantages:

Mental Blow: Innate Attack (Fatigue; Malediction, Variable; Telepathic, -10%)
Mind Shield: Mind Shield (Telepathic, -10%)

And the skills Suggest and Mind Block are normal skills in the fourth edition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I fully agree with AD&D1's psionic combat being insanely complicated. It sat in my "I don't use this" bucket along side the to hit AC modifier table and the nightmare that wer the grappling combat system.
I don't find AD&D psionics too complicated to USE, just too complicated to reproduce with GURPS mechanics. Each psychic has a number of attack and defense modes and a total psionic strength. An attack consists of the attacker choosing an attack mode and the defender choosing a defense mode. Cross reference these on the appropriate section of the Psionic vs. Psionic table based on the attacker's psionic strength to find the number of points lost by the defender (or the chance of instant death). If the defender has lost all defense points, look instead on the Psionic Attack Upon Defenseless Psionic table, which details results like losing psionic ability or strength, being dazed, and being under the mental control of the victor. The system isn't complicated to use in play; it just has a complicated set of tables that can't be reproduced by the relatively simple advantages and skills of GURPS.

This sort of "each secretly choose a tactic and cross-reference them for a result" is actually quite entertaining. TSR did a simpler version of it with the jousting rules in Chainmail: choose an aiming point and a position in the saddle, then cross-reference these on the jousting matrix to see whether you break your lance, get knocked off your horse, sustain injury, lose your helmet, and so on.
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
[i]

And the skills Suggest and Mind Block are normal skills in the fourth edition.



I don't find AD&D psionics too complicated to USE, just too complicated to reproduce with GURPS mechanics.
.
The "Suggest" in 3e Psionics was a Telepathic "skill" perhaps more acurately described as a "sub-Power". "Suggest in the 4e Skill list is in the "Enthrallment" category with appropriate prerequisites and is generally more of a "Bardic Influence" thing. There's a "Suggestion Only" Limitation under the Mind Control Advantage that is probably closer to the 3e thing.

The AD&D Psionics summary given was excellent but only for the 1e rules. There were different rules in the 2e Complete Psionics Hanbook and the Dark Sun setting that used most of the same names and was a little less baroque.

Finally, I've never read Chainmail but the jousting system described sounds very simiiar to such a system in Chivalry & Sorcery 1e.
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Old 04-23-2021, 05:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

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AD&D psionic combat is crazy-complicated compared to anything GURPS does with psionics.
It got more complicated in Dark Sun 2E's The Will & The Way. (E.g., each of the mental attacks and defenses got variants.)
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: AD&D Psionics conversion to GURPS

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I made a noticeable error for Intellect
...
I hope this helps and sorry about the error on Intellect Tower.
Oh goodness, that is so much more than I hoped or expected. MASSIVE "thank yous"!
Are the numbers you note 3rd Ed or 4th Ed?

Rev Pee Kitty may want to archive this somehow.
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