Realm Management examples

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by maximara

Actually CSA currency went into the dumpster because, as with the Continental currency before it, there wasn't anything actually behind it. The Union had gold and silver backing its currency while the CSA had effectively zilch.

The Union also issued paper fiat money during the war. The Legal Tender Act of 1862 established the first paper money in the US that was backed only by the guarantee that the law would recognize its value.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by dcarson

I'm tempted to try to do the Duchy of Grand Fenwick in Realm Management. What are the military stats for 20 longbowmen and a Q bomb that can destroy a quarter of Europe?

TS 1,000,006

[benz72]

Originally Posted by maximara

Actually CSA currency went into the dumpster because, as with the Continental currency before it, there wasn't anything actually behind it. The Union had gold and silver backing its currency while the CSA had effectively zilch.

Whew, good thing we learned that lesson and don't issue unbacked currency anymore. #:)

[maximara]

Originally Posted by dcarson

Even gold backed paper money gets worthless if people figure the people you are fighting are going to capture the gold reserves real soon now. And if you flee and take the gold with you there tends to be suspicions that you'll use the gold to buy new stuff not repay it to the people that hold the old currency.

The thing is gold in of itself has no more "value" than the paper it supports in such a system. The History of Paper Money shows why the idea of "real" money is flawed.

From the GURPS wiki:

One major problem with Wealth in GURPS is it is insanely setting dependent and not in the way you think.

For example in Lost in Space's "Treasure of the Lost Planet" the treasure of a pirate from Betelguese is pig iron - because gold, silver, and even jewels on his homeworld are so common that buildings and even utensils are made with them but there was no iron on Betelguese.

In Star Trek's "Catspaw" Kirk points out the Enterprise can make a ton of diamonds, rubies, emeralds, and sapphires making them "valueless".

One of the gag emotes by the female Draenei in World of Warcraft is "This planet has a tremendous supply of sandstone. The inhabitants must be wealthy beyond their dreams."

In the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon Eric is from a wealthy family but in the Realm he is effectively dead broke as the money he has on him is worthless. The Howells of Gilligan's Island are in the same situation for their stay on the island as the money they brought with them is effectively worthless.

Even within the US the cost of living fluctuates wildly. There are places where $20,000 is average wealth and others (such as New York City) where it would be considered struggling or even poor.

Moreover, there are materials rarer then gold and silver on our Earth and yet are worth less. Rhenium comes to mind.

[Ramidel]

IMO, a realm exists if it's relevant to the game; there doesn't necessarily need to be a mechanical simulationist guideline for when a province is a realm or for when it's just a part of something bigger. If the PCs are dealing with the local baron, his barony gets statted up.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by maximara

For the Articles of Confederation era that is not correct for the US. You had the states printing their own money in addition to what the continental Congress did.

You are right. I did not check when the Coinage Act was passed, that's 1792; I thought it was earlier. Naturally, the Bank of North America and the Nova Constellatio go back to 1782-1783.
Bottom line, even in its nascent condition the new state realized, within less than ten years, that it needed one currency, and within less than twenty, part of which employed to win a life-or-death war, implemented it.

The HRE never did - for some 9 centuries. Yes it had a common reference, the thaler, but each estate had its own mint, its own coins that related to the thaler in different ways, and above all different monetary policies that at times were at odds with those of the other estates.

As to the CSA dollar, we could discuss whether it tanked because it was not backed by gold and silver, or because the CSA were losing the war. Imagine this. You live in Alabama and a have a stash of CSA dollars. It's January, 1865. You know the war is lost. But in this alternate world, the CSA somehow never issued one note not backed by gold.
What do you think? That since there's gold backing your paper money, it will remain worth its nominal value? I'd have my doubts.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Ramidel

IMO, a realm exists if it's relevant to the game; there doesn't necessarily need to be a mechanical simulationist guideline for when a province is a realm or for when it's just a part of something bigger. If the PCs are dealing with the local baron, his barony gets statted up.

Of course. GURPS Realm Management, indeed, exists for those gaming groups that want to meddle with state affairs. And/or international relations.

That said, I'll repeat: look at what the reality on the ground is, not at what polite diplomatic figments or unsustainable dynastic claims are. Use the rules to represent reality, not fiction.

- Does the barony do whatever the baron wants, apart from the fact that it sends 1% of its revenues to the king or emperor? Then look up the box on p. 17.
- Is there a king somewhere who says the barony is a vassal state, or even a part of the kingdom? Fine, but if the baron doesn't give a hoot about that and the barony hasn't given the kingdom anything over the past 100 years, then the barony is an independent realm, regardless of it not being called a "kingdom".
- Or, maybe, are there in the barony a royal sheriff, a royal bailiff, the king's taxmen, a royal hunting preserve, a city having market privileges under a royal charter, and does the baron regularly send, at the beginning of the campaign season, 20 horsemen and 100 footmen as part of his feudal duties to the king? Then the barony is nothing but a part of the kingdom. Regardless of whether the baron fancies himself as an independent ruler only sending tribute to a peer.

[Michele]

NAME: The Empire
Total Area: 1,000,000 sqm
Realm Size Value: +19
Resource Points: 50 (20 Agriculture Points, 5 Luxury/Precious Goods Points, 10 Natural Resource Points, 15 Workforce Points)
TL: 3
Cultural Traits: None/Second-Class Citizen (-1%) *
Realm Inhabitant Racial Traits: None
Population: 10,000,000
Citizen Loyalty: Neutral (10; +2)/Poor (7; +1) †
Infrastructure Rating: 3
Control Rating: 4/5 **
Conformity Rating: 2
Openness Rating: 2
Education Rating: 2
Government Type: Bureaucracy/Feudal
Economy Type: Capitalism
Defense Bonus and Terrain: 1; Mixed
Management Skill: 12
Habitability: Neutral (11)
Reaction Time Modifier: +10 ‡
Realm Enhancements (+10%): Clear Routes 1 (+10%)
Realm Limitations (-53%): Corrupt 2 (-20%); Disloyal Citizenry 1 (-3%) §; Inactive Realm 2 (-10%); Inefficient 1 (-15%); Light Taxation 1 (-5%)
Social Resonance: 0
Patron Value: 30
Enemy Value: -40
Realm Value: $ 2,352,000,000
Starting RP Cost: $1,050,000,000
Military Resources: $202,125,000 **
Revenue: $ 525,000,000 **
Starting Revenue: $23,520,000
Inhabitants’ Status: -4 to 8
Inhabitant’s Wealth: Dead Broke to Multimillionaire
Notes: Second-Class Citizen applies to 25% of the population. This accounts for ethnic/religious minorities, recently annexed territories where the inhabitants have less rights, and slaves (who also are Status -4, and technically should be Valuable Property). It does not apply to serfs (Status -3) who belong to the ethnic/religious majority. CR 5 applies to Second-Class Citizens.
About 50% of the military budget is related to the emperor’s standing army, which is a crucial factor in maintaining the empire united. The remaining 50% amounts to the local lords’ feudal military duties.

The Empire is the largest state in the continent, controlling most of it. Typically, it’s a big patchwork that is bursting at the seams and fraying at the edges. The one good thing going for it is its infrastructures, which are reasonably good in general, and particularly good when it comes to its military highways (whence Clear Routes 1). Another aspect that has improved over recent decades, in part also due to those Clear Routes, is trade; market cities, international trade and the ascending merchant class are now providing a sizable contribution to the emperor’s revenues.
On the contrary, the government and administration, which patches together an unwieldy imperial bureaucracy with standard feudal power bases, are a mess, with rampant corruption and large-scale inefficiency. The state machine is slow, even for a bureaucracy, and seldom works well. Its very size and complexity (a highly stratified society with the Emperor at Status 8) work against it. A RTM of +10 probably makes it the slowest-reacting realm in the continent.
In addition, it’s not a nation-state, and it shows. About a quarter of the population is looked down upon, as a mish-mash of minority ethnic groups and/or religions. Recently annexed regions typically also fare worse than the older parts of the Empire. Unsurprisingly, these minorities are less loyal to the state than the rest of the population, which anyway isn’t that fond of it. Side effects are relatively low Conformity and Openness.
With Education Rating 2, the Empire is relatively better off than other realms around it, and its technology is at a mature TL3. It’s somewhat admired for that. On the down side, it’s imperialistic; neighboring states are at best wary about it. On balance, this gives Social Resonance 0.

* Second-Class Citizen (-5%) applies to 25% of the population (thus -1%).
† Includes +2 from CR 4/5; Neutral (10; +2) applies to 75% of the population, Poor (7; +1) applies to 25% of the population (Disloyal Citizenry 1).
‡ Includes +1 from Bureaucracy government and +2 from Inactive Realm 2.
§ Disloyal Citizenry 1 (-15%) applies to 25% of the population (thus -3%) .
** These figures are calculated by applying tax-related CR 3 (due to Light Taxation 1) to 75% of the population, and CR4 to the remaining 25%. Military Resources also get +5% from Feudal government.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Michele

Bottom line, even in its nascent condition the new state realized, within less than ten years, that it needed one currency, and within less than twenty, part of which employed to win a life-or-death war, implemented it.

The HRE never did - for some 9 centuries. Yes it had a common reference, the thaler, but each estate had its own mint, its own coins that related to the thaler in different ways, and above all different monetary policies that at times were at odds with those of the other estates.

That common reference is key here. Remember we are in a time when specie was the rule and that specie itself had the precious metal that backed it's value. The US dollar and Euro serve much the same function as the thaler in that they are the bench mark against what other currencies are measured against despite wildly different monetary policies.

Originally Posted by Michele

As to the CSA dollar, we could discuss whether it tanked because it was not backed by gold and silver, or because the CSA were losing the war. Imagine this. You live in Alabama and a have a stash of CSA dollars. It's January, 1865. You know the war is lost. But in this alternate world, the CSA somehow never issued one note not backed by gold.
What do you think? That since there's gold backing your paper money, it will remain worth its nominal value? I'd have my doubts.

The problem with such an alternative is CSA currency was akin to a banknote ie a promissory note of credit. There was literally nothing behind it, no commodity at all not even things of value like land or slaves.

More over the CSA in OTL did have gold - they had seized the US Mint bullion reserves in Charlotte, North Carolina; Dahlonega, Georgia; and New Orleans, Louisiana. The problem was the same we have with our Penney today - it would have cost more to turn those bullion reserves into specie than the coinage was worth. The closest they ever came to actual specie was 500 restruct 50 cent pieces when the back was planed down and restruct.

Even if the CSA had linked its paper currency to that captured bullion it would have been reclaimed by the Union as it was in OTL and the paper currency would still have nothing behind it.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by maximara

That common reference is key here. Remember we are in a time when specie was the rule and that specie itself had the precious metal that backed it's value. The US dollar and Euro serve much the same function as the thaler in that they are the bench mark against what other currencies are measured against despite wildly different monetary policies.

Yes, the Mexican peso is strongly linked to the US dollar, like the coins of several German estates were (on average, less strongly) linked to the HRE thaler.

Mexico is not a part of the USA, nevertheless.

And Mexico is not debasing/counterfeiting US coins/notes, which OTOH is exactly what Prussia did when it suited it. Not only did the Prussians did this; they also used Saxon stamps, so as to cover their traces and unload the problem on Saxony. Of course at the time both were members of the HRE, but Prussia did not find that to be a hindrance to its military occupation of Saxony.

I rest my case.