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Old 09-23-2021, 11:01 AM   #11
Spada
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

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Originally Posted by Thamior View Post
I think it's an unintended omission on LTC part. Something tells me that if you would use this longer handle axe in one hand IRL it would require more time to return it to ready position. Watch some Shadiversity videos and it becomes obvious.
I would continue the rule "A weapon that isn’t already unbalanced gets a U on its Parry stat." with "A weapon that already has it should add a turn of ready time."
Yes, that’s the same thing that I thought lol. I don’t understand why long handles on axes/maces/picks are simply a plus to these weapons instead of giving them the same penalties they do for polearms, including making swings unready. A Long Axe seems to be exactly the same as an Axe with weight and cost for a long handle per LTC, but getting a +1 to damage from the longer handle plus the LTC won’t make it unready. Maybe we need an Errata? Same thing would happen with a Mace: It would have tetsubo damage and reach but without getting unready like the tetsubo does. Definitely something went wrong on design here.

And there’s not only that, but the fact that you can give long handles to one-handed weapons and enjoy them with all the benefits from a two-handed version (+1 to damage and reach) with no downsides at all, as they’re almost all already (except the hatchet) Parry (U) anyway. Why use an Axe or Mace two-handed and not simply give it a long handle in that case? It makes no sense.

Last edited by Spada; 09-23-2021 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 09-23-2021, 11:13 AM   #12
Dalillama
 
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
You seem to got what I meant wrong. I never asked about giving a long handle to a tetsubo (it’s also wooden, rather than iron), what I did ask is if the Tetsubo already accounts for the +1 to cr flange bonus to damage, as it’s not clear by LTC.
Yes, the Tetsubo is a flanged staff. You appear to have misread the LTC entry for the axe, though; an Axe with a long handle has the same readying characteristics as the Long Axe, but with +1 damage. (IMO, the Long Axe should've already had that +1 anyway).
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Old 09-24-2021, 04:59 AM   #13
Balor Patch
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

A quick Google image search reveals that flanges are typical for a tetsubo, so it's probably best to assume that the one in the weapon table has them.
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Old 09-24-2021, 02:28 PM   #14
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

I'm going to assume we're talking about two-handed use here since the Long Axe (LT70) is only listed under Two-Handed Axe, whereas the basic Axe is listed under both the 1H and 2H categorie.s.

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
Why use a Long Axe when I can just snap a long handle in a normal Axe, for the same price and weight
Long Axe has reach 1,2 whereas a basic Axe (B271) has Reach 1.

LTC2p13's "Long" option gives +1 to reach which would give a fixed reach of 2, which is less flexible than a reach of 1,2

LTC2p23 also gives the Long Axe slightly more HP (12) than the Axe (10) and there's no note about getting extra HP when using the 'long' option to modify weapons.

ST requirements are also a factor here. Notice for example that a basic axe has a ST requirement of 10 as a 4lb weapon wielded 2-handed. You're supposed to use 2/3 of weapon weight when wielded 2-handed which would be about 2.6. Per LTC2p15 (Determining Weapon ST) this would be "less than 3" which is normally a ST of 8, so this axe design seems to require +2 ST relative to it's weight.

Now if we increase weight by 50% to 6, using 2/3 of that would be 4, which falls under "Less than 6" or ST 11. Applying +2 to that would be ST 13, which means it would be harder to handle a "Long Handle Axe" compared to the mere ST 11 requirement of wielding a "Long Axe".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spada View Post
and enjoy it without having to get it back ready every another turn
It does seem strange that it makes Parry 0 weapons (such as a hatcher) worse (0U = Unbalanced) but doesn't make weapons already 0U (like the axe) any worse.

A not-horrible house-rule might be if it is already 0U and has a single-dagger ST to upgrade it to double-dagger St.

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
Also, would it make sense to stick a Long Handle in a Long Axe in order to get that Reach 3?
I can't see anything preventing it. Given that this would be a "Long Long Axe" I'm thinking to avoid confusion between the basic "Long Axe" and the modified "Long+Axe" we should abandon adjectiveless names for weapons.

What was once the "axe" in basic set for example could be renamed "Basic Axe" so that we don't confuse the "Long Handle Basic Axe" with the Long Axe.

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
This happens to the Tetsubo as well.
There's simply no reason to use one at all if I can just stick a long handle to a standard Mace,
and enjoy similar damage and reach with less weight and without having it getting unbalanced too.
*checks LT70*
Well as before, the Tetsubo would have more flexible range than a Long Handle Maxe (reach 1,2 vs reach 2) making it more versatile for close-range use.

As before I do think it would make a nice houserule to upgrade single-daggar to double-daggar ST when doing this.

The weight/ST issue is also worth analyzing here too.

Maces require more ST than usual because if you applied 2/3 of weight 5 you get around 3.3 which per "less than 4" should require ST 10 to use.

Applying 2/3 of the +50% weight 7.5 is 5 ("less than 8") which is normally ST 11, but if we're doing +1 then it would be ST 12...

Which is still better off than needing ST 13 like the Tetsubo, so I guess the Long Handle combo wins here, unlike the Axe/Long Axe comparison.
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Old 09-24-2021, 04:39 PM   #15
Spada
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm going to assume we're talking about two-handed use here since the Long Axe (LT70) is only listed under Two-Handed Axe, whereas the basic Axe is listed under both the 1H and 2H categorie.s.


Long Axe has reach 1,2 whereas a basic Axe (B271) has Reach 1.

LTC2p13's "Long" option gives +1 to reach which would give a fixed reach of 2, which is less flexible than a reach of 1,2

LTC2p23 also gives the Long Axe slightly more HP (12) than the Axe (10) and there's no note about getting extra HP when using the 'long' option to modify weapons.

ST requirements are also a factor here. Notice for example that a basic axe has a ST requirement of 10 as a 4lb weapon wielded 2-handed. You're supposed to use 2/3 of weapon weight when wielded 2-handed which would be about 2.6. Per LTC2p15 (Determining Weapon ST) this would be "less than 3" which is normally a ST of 8, so this axe design seems to require +2 ST relative to it's weight.

Now if we increase weight by 50% to 6, using 2/3 of that would be 4, which falls under "Less than 6" or ST 11. Applying +2 to that would be ST 13, which means it would be harder to handle a "Long Handle Axe" compared to the mere ST 11 requirement of wielding a "Long Axe".


It does seem strange that it makes Parry 0 weapons (such as a hatcher) worse (0U = Unbalanced) but doesn't make weapons already 0U (like the axe) any worse.

A not-horrible house-rule might be if it is already 0U and has a single-dagger ST to upgrade it to double-dagger St.


I can't see anything preventing it. Given that this would be a "Long Long Axe" I'm thinking to avoid confusion between the basic "Long Axe" and the modified "Long+Axe" we should abandon adjectiveless names for weapons.

What was once the "axe" in basic set for example could be renamed "Basic Axe" so that we don't confuse the "Long Handle Basic Axe" with the Long Axe.


*checks LT70*
Well as before, the Tetsubo would have more flexible range than a Long Handle Maxe (reach 1,2 vs reach 2) making it more versatile for close-range use.

As before I do think it would make a nice houserule to upgrade single-daggar to double-daggar ST when doing this.

The weight/ST issue is also worth analyzing here too.

Maces require more ST than usual because if you applied 2/3 of weight 5 you get around 3.3 which per "less than 4" should require ST 10 to use.

Applying 2/3 of the +50% weight 7.5 is 5 ("less than 8") which is normally ST 11, but if we're doing +1 then it would be ST 12...

Which is still better off than needing ST 13 like the Tetsubo, so I guess the Long Handle combo wins here, unlike the Axe/Long Axe comparison.

Try the Axe from the Low-Tech, not from Basic Set, and you’ll understand what I meant. And I don’t think a long handle also raises the minimum range, but only gives a reach +1* option.
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Old 09-24-2021, 05:02 PM   #16
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
Try the Axe from the Low-Tech, not from Basic Set, and you’ll understand what I meant.
I was looking at Basic at first but thought I compared to LT in the end.
What changes are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Spada View Post
I don’t think a long handle also raises the minimum range, but only gives a reach +1* option.
Realistically yeah, just going by RAW
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Old 09-27-2021, 12:34 PM   #17
Spada
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

Mistake on my part, I didn’t realize the basic Axe from LT is still the same stat-wise lol.
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Old 10-05-2021, 09:02 PM   #18
Spada
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
ST requirements are also a factor here. Notice for example that a basic axe has a ST requirement of 10 as a 4lb weapon wielded 2-handed. You're supposed to use 2/3 of weapon weight when wielded 2-handed which would be about 2.6. Per LTC2p15 (Determining Weapon ST) this would be "less than 3" which is normally a ST of 8, so this axe design seems to require +2 ST relative to it's weight.

Now if we increase weight by 50% to 6, using 2/3 of that would be 4, which falls under "Less than 6" or ST 11. Applying +2 to that would be ST 13, which means it would be harder to handle a "Long Handle Axe" compared to the mere ST 11 requirement of wielding a "Long Axe".
Okay so after some time I decided to do the math and... Nope, the basic Axe wielded two-handed has the same ST requirement as the Long Axe. It's not +2 relative to it's weight, but simply +1. It weighs 4, that would mean ST 10, wielded one-handed, plus +1 to ST from unbalanced according to LTC2p16. Although the two-handed axe/mace table puts it at ST 10† when it should be ST 9† (showing another inconsistency between LT and LTC2), the one-handed table still keeps it at only +1 relative to weight. That'd mean a basic Axe with a long handle would go from weight 4 to 6, what would mean ST 11, plus one, becoming 12... But you need to consider only 2/3 of weight when it's wielded two-handed like the long axe, thus becoming weight 4 for table ratio purposes and ST 10. Add the +1 from unbalanced on it, and voila, the basic Axe with a Long Handle weighs the same, requires the same ST as the Long Axe, by the rules can be wielded one-handed with a mere ST 12 vs ST 16 for the Long Axe, does not get unready in either case and still gets +1 to damage, dealing the same as the mighty Great Axe.

Definitely a problem we'd like to be addressed here lol. The only downside is slighty lower weapon HP.

Meanwhile I'm just houseruling that long handle axe/maces/picks get a cross to their ST (thus becoming two-handed only unless you got a ton of ST) and get a double cross if they're already unbalanced parry.
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Old 10-11-2021, 07:39 PM   #19
Spada
 
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Default Re: [LTC] About axes and long handles

It would sure be nice if we could get official answers to that…
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