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Old 05-30-2023, 03:58 PM   #51
Carlos
 
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
The swing/thrust dichotomy is so entrenched in GURPS... I feel like martial artists need to shine in other areas to make up for not being as strong in combat.
Any Martial Artist can use Bladed Hands to deal Swing damage (Swing -2) with Karate. Out of the box, if you pick Half-Ogre [20] and Striking ST 2 (Chi, -10%), you will have ST 17 for damage (3d-1 Swing). With Karate bonus, that's 3d+3, possibly a little more with SM+1 Bladed Hands.

That said, while that works pretty well, not every one wants to play a Diablo II Assassin-like Martial Artist. As someone who grew up playing fighting games, I love the idea of a Martial Artist/Monk crushing his enemies with the power of his punches and kicks. But in GURPS terms, Thrust is a terrible way to deal damage. Swing damage is the way.

When the Unarmed Master advantage was presented at Pyramid Magazine #3/61, I was excited by its name. And then I was disappointed when I saw it was nothing more than just a package of 4 Strikers that stacks with Strikers.

Fortunately, just 4 issues later (Pyramid Magazine #3/65), a fellow countryman presented the solution: Natural Weapons. In the article, there is a modification that allows the Natural Weapon advantage to deal Swing damage. That is the answer to make unarmed Martial Artist specialists to shine in combat.

I just hope to see this solution printed in a Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Martial Artists book, so it becomes an official power-up.

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
The trouble is that the whole Ye Olden Times fantasy genre is very much about swords (and the elf's bow! and the dwarf's axe!) You might be able to find the occasional kung-fu-cinema-influence exception, but making unarmed combat on par with armed combat is probably not what most fans of the genre want. Which is not to say nobody wants it—a significant minority of players evidently do—but I don't see a way to make everyone happy here.
I'm not sure if it's ever possible to make everyone happy, but what I know is that the more options are available, the more likely it is that players will be happier. And I think the Dungeon Fantasy Denizens series is the perfect place to give the unarmed Martial Artists the options to make them worthy to stand side-by-side with Swashbucklers in terms of combat prowess.
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Old 05-31-2023, 07:13 AM   #52
Varyon
 
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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
That said, while that works pretty well, not every one wants to play a Diablo II Assassin-like Martial Artist.
Of course, for those who do, you'd by RAW need Knife skill as well, as that's what katars use (D2 Assassins have three variants of fist weapons - katars, hatchet hands, and claws; hatchet hands would basically just be thr cut versions of katars, while the claws are too long to be like neko-de or similar, so should probably also use Knife - I'd treat them compared to a katar like a trident is compared to a spear, with +1 or so to damage and AD (0.5)). That said, while not strictly RAW, I'd have no objections to someone with Trained by a Master using Weapon Adaptation to have such fist weapons work with Brawling/Boxing/Karate (and even getting the damage bonus to boot, but note this wouldn't stack with Weapon Master).

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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
... Natural Weapon advantage to deal Swing damage. That is the answer to make unarmed Martial Artist specialists to shine in combat.
Agreed. There is the issue that you need to buy it separately for hands and feet, if you want both your punches and your kicks to be enhanced. As a Power Up, I could see each being available as a leveled trait, probably with flavorful names. The first level would be (away from my main machine so going off memory here) Crushing Natural Attack (Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [4.5], which rounds up to [5]. The second level would add on Extra Damage +2 +60% for [3] (with this being written as "the better of +2 or +1/die"), and the third (and final) level would add on another Extra Damage +2 +60% for another [3] (resulting in "the better of +4 or +2/die"). Note Hidden is there to account for the fact you being armed isn't obvious, while Cannot Parry is a non-issue for a character using Karate, as they can just Parry weapons unarmed anyway. You'd have to buy this separately for fists and feet, but [9] or [10] to make your punches and kicks do swing damage would arguably be worth it - and [+3] or [+6] each for a further +1/die or +2/die (which should stack with the bonus from Karate, meaning you could in theory get +4/die - that ST 17 Martial Artist would punch for 3d+11, or 6d damage if converting adds to dice) isn't too shabby either. And this could go further, with special exotic hand strikes that deal cutting and/or impaling damage. These would be Cutting Natural Attack (Extra Damage Type, Crushing +20%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [7.7], which rounds up to [8] (and [+4.2] per +2 or +1/die to damage) or Impaling Natural Attack (Extra Damage Type, Crushing +20%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [8.8], which rounds up to [9] (and [+4.8] per +2 or +1/die to damage); you could also be able to deal all three, with Impaling Natural Attack (Extra Damage Types, Crushing and Cutting +40%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [10.4] (still [+4.8] per +2 or +1/die).
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Old 05-31-2023, 07:48 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Of course, for those who do, you'd by RAW need Knife skill as well, as that's what katars use (D2 Assassins have three variants of fist weapons - katars, hatchet hands, and claws; hatchet hands would basically just be thr cut versions of katars, while the claws are too long to be like neko-de or similar, so should probably also use Knife - I'd treat them compared to a katar like a trident is compared to a spear, with +1 or so to damage and AD (0.5)). That said, while not strictly RAW, I'd have no objections to someone with Trained by a Master using Weapon Adaptation to have such fist weapons work with Brawling/Boxing/Karate (and even getting the damage bonus to boot, but note this wouldn't stack with Weapon Master).
Or just use a pair of oversized Bladed Hands (as well as other modifiers from DF1) and call it Dragon Claws because Diablo 2 does not run under GURPS mechanics and we are talking about a Diablo II Assassin-like character (in the sense that it's using "Martial Arts" and a "claw weapon"). Investing in Knife skill would mean that you are investing in another striking skill that is not Karate.

Sure, a perk could solve that, but why use a precious perk slot (1 per 20 in combat skills) when there is the Bladed Hands to do Swing damage Karate attacks?


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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Agreed. There is the issue that you need to buy it separately for hands and feet, if you want both your punches and your kicks to be enhanced.
That's true, but at least Natural Weapons advantage is more generous than Striker; the first counts for a pair of weapons, while the later counts for a single limb.

So to enhance punches and kicks, you need a set of 4 Strikers (like it was made with the Unarmed Master advantage), but for achieving the same effect with Natural Weapons, you just need a set of 2 Natural Weapons (one for your arms and another one for your legs).

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The first level would be (away from my main machine so going off memory here) Crushing Natural Attack (Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [4.5], which rounds up to [5]. The second level would add on Extra Damage +2 +60% for [3] (with this being written as "the better of +2 or +1/die"), and the third (and final) level would add on another Extra Damage +2 +60% for another [3] (resulting in "the better of +4 or +2/die"). Note Hidden is there to account for the fact you being armed isn't obvious, while Cannot Parry is a non-issue for a character using Karate, as they can just Parry weapons unarmed anyway. You'd have to buy this separately for fists and feet, but [9] or [10] to make your punches and kicks do swing damage would arguably be worth it - and [+3] or [+6] each for a further +1/die or +2/die (which should stack with the bonus from Karate, meaning you could in theory get +4/die - that ST 17 Martial Artist would punch for 3d+11, or 6d damage if converting adds to dice) isn't too shabby either. And this could go further, with special exotic hand strikes that deal cutting and/or impaling damage. These would be Cutting Natural Attack (Extra Damage Type, Crushing +20%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [7.7], which rounds up to [8] (and [+4.2] per +2 or +1/die to damage) or Impaling Natural Attack (Extra Damage Type, Crushing +20%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [8.8], which rounds up to [9] (and [+4.8] per +2 or +1/die to damage); you could also be able to deal all three, with Impaling Natural Attack (Extra Damage Types, Crushing and Cutting +40%; Hidden +20%; Swing-Only +20%; Cannot Parry -40%; Chi -10%) [10.4] (still [+4.8] per +2 or +1/die).
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Cannot Parry modifier would apply. Your arms and legs are your Natural Weapons and you want to use them to parry attacks like if they were weapons.
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Old 05-31-2023, 09:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
Or just use a pair of oversized Bladed Hands (as well as other modifiers from DF1) and call it Dragon Claws because Diablo 2 does not run under GURPS mechanics and we are talking about a Diablo II Assassin-like character (in the sense that it's using "Martial Arts" and a "claw weapon"). Investing in Knife skill would mean that you are investing in another striking skill that is not Karate.

Sure, a perk could solve that, but why use a precious perk slot (1 per 20 in combat skills) when there is the Bladed Hands to do Swing damage Karate attacks?
Don't oversized weapons require the character to either have the SM the weapons are sized for or have the Huge Hands Perk (which gives +1 SM for purposes of wielding oversized weapons)? That's still a Perk you're burning through; I guess it would arguably come down to how the oversized bladed hand compares to a standard katar statwise.

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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
That's true, but at least Natural Weapons advantage is more generous than Striker; the first counts for a pair of weapons, while the later counts for a single limb.

So to enhance punches and kicks, you need a set of 4 Strikers (like it was made with the Unarmed Master advantage), but for achieving the same effect with Natural Weapons, you just need a set of 2 Natural Weapons (one for your arms and another one for your legs).
I know there's a Dual Enhancement for melee Innate Attacks; I think it works for Strikers as well, and that would get you to the point of only needing to buy it twice to cover both punches and kicks. But, yeah, I typically prefer to have Natural Weapons replace the Striker Advantage (as well as Claws, Teeth, and melee Innate Attacks).

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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Cannot Parry modifier would apply. Your arms and legs are your Natural Weapons and you want to use them to parry attacks like if they were weapons.
Cannot Parry means you cannot use your Natural Weapon to Parry, but you should still be able to do unarmed Parries just fine - and with Karate, your unarmed Parries are just as good as armed ones. And you also get an additional side benefit - even with Cannot Parry, strikes with your Natural Weapon count as armed strikes, so unarmed foes relying on Brawling (and I think Boxing, Sumo Wrestling, and Wrestling) are going to be at -3 to Parry your "unarmed" attacks (as they're swing-based) and armed foes don't get a free Aggressive Parry against your hand (although TbaM should already give that benefit; I know TKD suggested doing so before, but I don't know if that ever made it into an official book).
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