Will Roll = Action?

[onetrikpony]

Does making an active Will Roll require a ready or concentrate maneuver or is it a free action?

More specifically; does the Will Roll for Extra Effort require any time?

If not; Could a character use Extra Effort while Berserk?
(I assume that if a will roll requires an action or maneuver a berserk character can't do it.)


Thanks for your help.

Reference;
Berserk B124
Extra Effort B356
Will Rolls B360
Concentrate and Ready Maneuvers; B366

[Plane]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

Does making an active Will Roll require a ready or concentrate maneuver or is it a free action?

As far as I'm aware, attribute rolls don't require any time (not even a free action: sometimes you can't do those either) unless it says that.

Fright Checks are a kind of will roll (as a resistance roll, not an activation roll) so if you had to spend a concentrate any time something potentially scary was around, that'd be intensely crippling.

To represent maneuvers for resisting w/ will you could use All-Out Defense (Mental), whereas for activation rolls you could try All-Out Concentrate.

AOC is designed for stuff that normally costs a concentrate so if you were using it for something that was 'free action' activated then it should probably be some kind of bigger bonus, not to mention a bonus for using a concentrate in places that demand a free action, since you're sort of penalizing yourself with an unnecessary level of "Takes Extra Time".

-10% would offset Reliable +2 +10% so that seems pretty reasonable in such a circumstance.

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

More specifically; does the Will Roll for Extra Effort require any time?

Not that I'm aware.

When Powers 160 talks about it under Powers in Action : Success Rolls for Abilities, it doesn't mention a ready/concentrate like Stunts does for Temporary Enhancements or Using Abilities at Default.

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

If not; Could a character use Extra Effort while Berserk?
(I assume that if a will roll requires an action or maneuver a berserk character can't do it.)

[onetrikpony]

Thank you.

The Power's reference helped too.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

If not; Could a character use Extra Effort while Berserk?
(I assume that if a will roll requires an action or maneuver a berserk character can't do it.)

Just as an aside, that's not actually the intent of the rules.

The action limitations in any disadvantage are intended to be [suggestive] not hard and fast limits. If you are berserk you can only do things consistent with being enraged beyond the ability to act rationally. That usually means you are stuck All Out Attacking, but their is room for exceptions - I for example would definitely allow you to re-Ready a melee weapon that goes unready when you attack with it so you can hit your victim again, and there are some actions scattered about in GURPS that are called as All Out Attacks because they are so *complex* they require too much concentration to allow you to defend - which I wouldn't let you try when you are Berserk just because they use AoA. You want to use Extra Effort to strike a Mighty Blow, throw a weapon at a foe just out of range, or break the ropes keeping you from lunging at him, that's fine. You want to use it to jump to a safer location, or brace yourself against knockback, then no. Has almost nothing to do with what rolls might or might not be required.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Just as an aside, that's not actually the intent of the rules.

The action limitations in any disadvantage are intended to be [suggestive] not hard and fast limits. If you are berserk you can only do things consistent with being enraged beyond the ability to act rationally. That usually means you are stuck All Out Attacking, but their is room for exceptions - I for example would definitely allow you to re-Ready a melee weapon that goes unready when you attack with it so you can hit your victim again

A strict reading of the rules regarding Berserk can also lead to silly things. What happens when someone goes Berserk while prone and unarmed? According to the rules, he crawls over to the closest enemy (which could take quite a while) and starts punching him in the shins.

I prefer to think of Berserk as effectively Temporary Obsession (Kill that guy as soon and directly as possible). While in that state, you should be able to explain how your character's actions are facilitating the imminent termination of the targeted foe. Usually that means hitting him as hard and fast as possible, but where something like changing posture would mean closing the distance quicker, the obvious way to end him rightly can involve actions other than Move or All-Out Attack.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RyanW

A strict reading of the rules regarding Berserk can also lead to silly things. What happens when someone goes Berserk while prone and unarmed? According to the rules, he crawls over to the closest enemy (which could take quite a while) and starts punching him in the shins.

This is why you steal Technical Grappling's use of "attack your weapon with Retain Weapon technique to establish grip CP" in lieu of a Ready :)

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Plane

This is why you steal Technical Grappling's use of "attack your weapon with Retain Weapon technique to establish grip CP" in lieu of a Ready :)

I dunno, if you can redefine your weapon as a valid target, then it's clearly the closest one most of the time, so if you're Berserk you can't move on to another target until you have destroyed it.

Seriously, pretty much any trait in any game will generate ridiculous situations if you insist on a literal legalistic reading no matter what. This is basically the origin of the hobby, as it is the sort of thing wargames first got referees to avoid.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I dunno, if you can redefine your weapon as a valid target, then it's clearly the closest one most of the time, so if you're Berserk you can't move on to another target until you have destroyed it.

It occurs to me we have a Berserk NPC (B321: Janos the vampire) so we could prob use him in our examples. He is skilled in 2 weapons (pistol and saber)

B124 mentions a 20 yard cutoff which I assume is based on someone 2 yards tall (I could see altering that a bit, like 10 yards if you're 1 yard tall, 30 yards if you're 3 yards tall, etc)

If we assume Janos has both a saber and a pistol, it would be cool to discuss how he might react in different situations, like for example

1) both are holstered
2) both are in hand
3) just saber is in hand, pistol is holstered
4) just pistol is in hand, saber is scabbarded

"Once your gun is empty, you must either draw another gun or charge into melee combat" makes it sound like you can draw a gun if it's not in hand. This is something which normally takes a Ready maneuver, but I'm not sure if this is like permission to do that.

It mentions earlier for reloading, for example:

You cannot reload unless your weapon – and your Fast-Draw skill – lets you reload “without thought” (can take no more than one second)

IE one ready is fine (one second) but two readies is not.

Even though it doesn't outright say it, I could see applying restrictions like this to the drawing of new weapons too... though maybe it's fine to let Berserkers spend more time drawing guns than reloading them?

The ready maneuver being accessible to Berserkers also seems important considering how some weapons require that maneuver to be usable: B269's double-daggar ST weapons:

requires two hands and becomes unready after you attack with it, unless you have at least 1.5 times the listed ST

B274's ST 10 chainsaw, for example, needed ST 15 to wield w/o it being unreadied after each hit. Should this mean berserkers with ST 14 or less can only attack once with a chainsaw, and then be forced to drop it since they can't use a ready maneuver to re-ready the chainsaw for a 2nd attack?

IMO it's pretty clear berserk allows ONE ready maneuver (otherwise it's say "less than a second" referring to free-action readying, not "no more than once second") if it's to get a weapon ready for attacking an enemy. If you can use a 1-second ready to reload your gun, you should be able to use it to draw your 2nd gun, or to draw a melee weapon, or to ready an unreadied melee weapon already in hand.

B124's "if armed with a hand weapon" basically doesn't seem like it would apply if you were unarmed, unless perhaps your hands were already deadly weapons (ie you had natural weapons like claws, or perhaps other body paerts like a spiked tail)

In the case of Janos, even without his Sharp Teeth, his Striking ST of 20+5 (his thrust is 2d+2!) gives him unarmed attacks deadlier than a lot of hand weapons wielded by weak humans. So when I think of him being berserk, it seems like he should be obligated to attack unarmed if he's angry at a weak foe, and not be able to take a ready to draw his saber, whereas I could see allowing a normal ST 10 human to draw that saber.

It seems like to me it should be a question of "does the character think they need this weapon to hurt their foe" which is a "maybe" for unarmed human drawing a saber to kill another unarmed human (he needs to stack those odds) and a "probably" if the other human IS armed.

In the case of Janos... probably not though, even if your foe did have some basic weaponry, because you outclass them that badly, so your berserk should make you view weapon-drawing as unnecessary and you just attack them in HTH.

This should probably be some kind of threat-assessment thing, like you could have an "eyeball foe's HP" skill, and then something like "if the average damage from your attack will not inflict a Major Wound then you may 1-second ready to draw a higher-damage weapon".

A "ready" is more "primal" IMO than a "concentrate" though so this wouldn't apply to stuff like "you can cast a spell to create a magic weapon" though. Concentrates can get interrupted by waits (breaking focus so you lose the effect) whereas a Wait interrupting a Ready won't induce Will rolls to maintain the REady.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

Could a character use Extra Effort while Berserk?

You cannot stack AoA with Mighty Blows unless you have the Focused Fury Perk (PU2, p.5).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

You cannot stack AoA with Mighty Blows unless you have the Focused Fury Perk (PU2, p.5).

Strange thing about that is the way it's phrased...

Unlike most fighters, you can combine Mighty Blows (p. B357) with All-Out Attack (Strong),

This might be taken to imply that you could normally combine Mighty Blows with other forms of All-Out Attack (ie Determined for +4 to hit, Double, or Long)

But that doesn't appear to be the case, since B357 specified only "attack maneuver" and M131 emphasized "it doesn’t work with All-Out Attack, Committed Attack, Defensive Attack, or Move and Attack"

So while I initially thought something like "I can take AOA Determined for +4 to hit, then Mighty Blows for +2 damage", this not only was untrue initially, but I don't think you could do this even with the Focused Fury perk, because it seems like AOA:strong would be the ONLY form of AOA you would be allowed to use Mighty Blows with?

Clearer phrasing I think be something like "unlime most fighters, you can combine mighty blows with a maneuver other than Attack, but only with All-Out Attack: Strong"