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Old 03-25-2019, 12:37 PM   #11
JLV
 
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

I gotta say that I strongly agree with Firehorse on this issue. ST is ALWAYS important because of physical things, like getting stabbed or drowning. IQ for Wizards (and magic in general) SHOULD be the most vital stat for anything spell related.

In fact, I agree so much with this, that in my house variant of original TFT, IQ generated a separate Mana Point total (just like ST generates a Fatigue Point total) for use in expending on spells. Players COULD exceed their Mana points by burning ST too, but it wasn't "Fatigue" then, it was actual hits that had to be healed the normal way. Fatigue was then available for all the fatigue things that GURPS talked about (excess burdens, working too hard or too long without rest, desert/arctic survival, and so on), which made the whole thing a lot more sensible to both me and my players.
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

One of the most fascinating differences between the Melee and Wizard games, from a purely game design perspective, is how much more complex wizards are, mathematically. That third attribute exponentially increases the size of the character design space, and that's even before you start dealing with spell inventory as opposed to weapon inventory (approximately a dozen slots as opposed to 2-3). With a warrior, the trade-off is strictly linear and two-dimensional. Higher ST means lower DX. You look for the sweet spot where the highest damage weapon you can carry doesn't cost you too much percentage to-hit.

Wizards, on the other hand, are much higher dimensional. As noted above, they need all three attributes. And the relative weighting is by no means obvious. But there is an actual weighting, embedded in the mathematical model of the game. Discovering it's precise shape is one of the joys of playing (and analyzing, but maybe that's just me and Henry :) ) the game. Squishing that complex invisible mathematical shape until it's just mostly IQ damages the very heart of the game design.

I don't have a good handle on the difference between different broad species of Wizard builds, but I do know this. An arena specialist, especially one who specializes on one-on-one battles, is going to have a very different spell loadout and attribute balance than a dungeon party member. A duelist has to specialize in damage-per-turn per strength-point expended. If they don't, the opponent will and they'll get torn to pieces. In a party, on the other hand, a wizard is more of a force-multiplier for the warriors. Indeed, a magic user loaded with low-cost spells to prevent the opponents from attacking effectively more than carries their own weight by simply letting the combat specialists maximize their mean damage per turn without having to nerf themselves with heavy armor.

If you're looking at your wizard's strength and thinking of it in terms of how many damage points thrown downfield it translates into, you may not be approaching the build properly.

As to the fatigue-unto-death issue, I agree it's hard to visualize in real world terms. That's why, in my headcanon, magical "exhaustion" isn't fatigue, or imbalance, it's actual physical wounds appearing on the wizard's body. Real pain, real blood loss, real shock. They heal very quickly (which is kind of eerie, but that's the point), but I think it's much more plausible for a minor knife wound to drop a nearly "exhausted" wizard dead when that "exhaustion" takes the form of mystical burns and stab wounds and bleeding, both internal and external. the game rules treat ST loss due to spell-fatigue as being just as deadly as ST loss due to wounds. To me, that seems to imply that physiologically, in the moment, they may be pretty much the same thing.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Note that a well developed TFT hero is far more complex than a Melee warrior.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
...Squishing that complex invisible mathematical shape until it's just mostly IQ damages the very heart of the game design.
Of course this completely ignores the fact about ST being necessary to absorb damage (from both magical and mundane means), or that DX is necessary in order to successfully cast the spell in the first place. (All the power in the world isn't much use if you can't hit the broad side of a barn). Putting the emphasis on IQ for magic actually just puts it on an equal footing with ST and DX. Naturally, YMMV and all that, but I'm just saying that I agree with Firehorse's comments on this subject and explaining why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
If you're looking at your wizard's strength and thinking of it in terms of how many damage points thrown downfield it translates into, you may not be approaching the build properly.
In my experience, everyone's "ideal build" is different, depending on their play style. I've never personally found a Platonic ideal build (though I've found several builds that I prefer to play), and I don't really think there is a "wrong" way to do it, honestly -- and that's the true beauty of TFT as designed IMHO.
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

IQ-based Fatigue certainly "changes" the game design, but I think "damages" is a stretch. The former is objective, but the latter seems awfully subjective.

I do like the word "headcanon", though. :)
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
IQ-based Fatigue certainly "changes" the game design, but I think "damages" is a stretch. The former is objective, but the latter seems awfully subjective.

I do like the word "headcanon", though. :)
Well said. I was trying to figure out a way to say the same thing as politely as you did, but eventually just gave it up.

And hey, aren't ALL Wizards "headcannon," regardless of the specific rules? ;-)
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Thinking about Skargs's comment regarding the Staff mana pool.

In reading the description it says that it creates a mana pont stored in the staff for 200XP.

My question is, when it is used does it need to be re-charged with 200 XP or does it recharge ala powerstone?
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amenditman View Post
My question is, when it is used does it need to be re-charged with 200 XP or does it recharge ala powerstone?
Neither applies.

ITL 148: "Once spent, the mana must be replaced. To “recharge” a staff, the wizard must either spend 5 ST points, or spend a half-day in contemplation, for each ST point replaced."

So it doesn't have the automatic recharge of a powerstone.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Well, it may have changed somewhat between then and now, but I do know when we were all discussing this back last summer before the Kickstarter, the INTENT of the rule was to spend 200XP (per point) to "acclimate" (for lack of the correct word) the staff to receiving mana, but afterwards you recharged the staff at no XP cost.

Now, having said that, there IS a procedure for re-charging it (it doesn't recharge automatically). Oh, and if your staff is destroyed somehow, you get to start the process of "acclimatization" over again from scratch with the new one.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: IQ for Fatigue…?

Thanks hcobb.
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