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Old 02-07-2015, 02:17 PM   #61
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I don't know if it's a problem. That huge penalty is primarily for vision, where the issue is whether you can see something so far away that it occupies only an incredibly tiny arc. But with smell your concern is whether there's enough intensity for you to detect its presence; you can't use smell to narrow down arc very much anyway. For comparison your eye can detect stars that are thousands of light-years away, which is on the order of a -95 range penalty (of course stars are very bright!). So it's not physically absurd to detect things at incredible ranges.

I might allow a double perk in this case. I was thinking about the moths that can smell female moth pheromones at tens of miles, and even tell whether to turn left or right to fly toward them. That seems like it would fit the doubled perk, not for smell in general but for smelling that one thing, or detecting it.

I'm asking because I like wolf-inspired characters, or characters that have shapeshifting for wolf tamplate. The level 2 for Long-Ranged Smell seems to much. It's only -2 for 1 mile, -4 for 10 miles, -6 for -100 miles and -8 for 1000 miles. A Wolf with PER 14, Discriminatory Smell would have Smell 18 at least. This mean that with Long-Range Smell 2 wound be easy to sense things hundreds of miles away. But with only LRS 1, it would be very hard to smell something at 1 mile (-18).

Maybe it's irrelevant for most games, but sometimes an extra like realism. And I don't know exactly what to do in this case.

Anyway, again, sorry for any english mistakes.
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Old 02-07-2015, 02:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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I'm asking because I like wolf-inspired characters, or characters that have shapeshifting for wolf tamplate. The level 2 for Long-Ranged Smell seems to much. It's only -2 for 1 mile, -4 for 10 miles, -6 for -100 miles and -8 for 1000 miles. A Wolf with PER 14, Discriminatory Smell would have Smell 18 at least. This mean that with Long-Range Smell 2 wound be easy to sense things hundreds of miles away. But with only LRS 1, it would be very hard to smell something at 1 mile (-18).

Maybe it's irrelevant for most games, but sometimes an extra like realism. And I don't know exactly what to do in this case.
Well, there may not be an optimal answer in terms of GURPS mechanics.

How reliable is that smelling prey at 1.75 miles? Is it something the wolves do every time, or more often than not, or is it the very best that has been attained in rare cases?

And are the wolves smelling prey that has never been closer than 1.75 miles, or are they smelling trails they left when they were much closer? Are they sniffing the ground, or only the incoming breezes?

This is just looking to see if there are ways to rationalize the wolves' actions in a less extreme way; of course, there may not be.
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Old 02-07-2015, 02:51 PM   #63
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Please could I get the source for that? The only Kromm quotes I can find regarding "Attribute Substitution" are for skills.
Sure... right here:

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd handle this as a grapple. Simply add a perk to the racial template: Attribute Substitution (Break Free based on DX). Now you have a being for whom all rolls to break free are DX-based. This isn't a huge advantage, really; it circumvents some of the weaknesses of having low ST, sure, but most delvers have rather high DX scores. If the elemental has low ST, though, it will be dragged around by its victim: "If you grapple a foe of more than twice your ST, you do not prevent him from moving away – you're just extra encumbrance for him!" (p. B370). Shaking off the creature means breaking free vs. its DX, not merely walking away. Now give it a suitable Aura (p. B102) and you're done.

Note that in the above ruling:
1. Grappling and being grappled aren't symmetric. Diffuse creatures can grapple; only being insubstantial prevents you from grappling. Diffuse creatures just can't be grappled back. This makes narrative sense here, too: A foul odor can cling to you, but you can't very well cling to it.

2. ST is used two separate ways for grappling: To rate the ST of the grapple, which is what the perk moves to DX, and to rate the grappler's mass, which is where the "more than twice your ST" part comes in, and which isn't changed by the perk.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:05 PM   #64
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Well, there may not be an optimal answer in terms of GURPS mechanics.

How reliable is that smelling prey at 1.75 miles? Is it something the wolves do every time, or more often than not, or is it the very best that has been attained in rare cases?

And are the wolves smelling prey that has never been closer than 1.75 miles, or are they smelling trails they left when they were much closer? Are they sniffing the ground, or only the incoming breezes?

This is just looking to see if there are ways to rationalize the wolves' actions in a less extreme way; of course, there may not be.
Well, I'm not a wolf specialist. The links that I have read say that they can sense up to 1.75 miles smells and other links say hunting dogs have an even better sense of smell.

From what I read, 1.75 miles it's in optimum/favorable conditions. Maybe it's their range limit.

In GURPS language, I imagine that this number it's not a avarage range, but some "top range" within some conditions. But it seems implicit in the texts that their sense of smell can reach much more that the level 1 of the perk could cover, but not good enough to justify a level 2.

Perhaps there may be some way to cut the penalties by half, with a new perk or something like that. Maybe something like this:

Long-Ranged Smell 1 - Like the book.
Long-Ranged Smell 2 - Half penalty
Long-Ranged Smell 3 - Long-Ranged Modifiers.

Ok, maybe it's not the ideal yet, but that's what comes to my mind now.

PS: Again, sorry for any english mistakes (this is almost a signature now =P).
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:46 PM   #65
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Okay. I'm pretty sure that Hypersensory isn't a proper build, though. Hypersensory means that you're using subconscious integration of the data from your normal human senses to detect or identify something in a way that seems miraculous. But I don't think the human sense of taste CAN discriminate blood types in the first place, so that would be a bit problematic.
If the human sense of taste could discriminate blood types in the first place, you wouldn't need to buy a type of Detect to do it for you.

Human senses can't detect thoughts, but you can have Mind Reading with Hypersensory.

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But, also, this build gives you the ability to pick up the presence of blood, even if it's in such small quantities that a normal human being wouldn't notice it.
1. If you wouldn't notice it, you're unlikely to put it in your mouth in order to taste it.

2. "Blood Taste" is Taste-Based, Reversed, that means you should get bonuses for strong tastes and penalties for weak tastes. If the penalty is so great you can't make the roll (2 or less) then it's in such small quantities that a normal human being wouldn't notice it, and Blood Taste isn't going to work. The first build I posted will still work if you can make any type of sense roll on the blood.

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I'm not seeing that your build does. That makes it a somewhat different ability.
In the first build I posted, you just need to see, smell, touch, taste, or somehow hear the blood, if you can't do any of those, "Blood taste" isn't going to help you, as you won't be able to notice the blood to put it in your mouth in the first place, and you won't be able to taste it, which you need for Taste-Based, Reversed.

In the second build, you need to notice the blood to put it in you mouth, then make a taste roll, just like "Blood Taste".
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:31 PM   #66
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

Mass Perception (p.26) gives us Detect Matter, is Matter a legal choice for detect?
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Originally Posted by basic page 48; detect
Very Common (all life, all supernatural phenomena and beings, all minerals, all energy): 30 points
Detect Matter would seem to cover both of all life and all minerals.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Mass Perception (p.26) gives us Detect Matter, is Matter a legal choice for detect?
It seemed to me that if Detect Energy is fair then Detect Matter is fair.

Of course, analyzing "matter" doesn't give you as much information as analyzing "minerals"; you can tell the density, probably, but not the chemical composition or the crystallography.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:58 PM   #68
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Of course, analyzing "matter" doesn't give you as much information as analyzing "minerals"; you can tell the density, probably, but not the chemical composition or the crystallography.
That doesn't connect with what Kromm says:

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Please reread the Detect advantage, because you're missing a crucial part of its value: "Detect also includes the ability to analyze what you detect." Someone with Detect (Gold) can detect only gold, and then roll vs. IQ to analyze various peculiarities limited to gold. Someone with Detect (Metal) can detect aluminium, copper, gold, iron, osmium, platinum, silver, tin, and dozens of other things, and can make an IQ roll to determine which one; in effect, it acts as Detect (Gold) and a whole family of other Detect advantages.
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Basically, Detect can detect any subset within its purview – that's why broader forms of Detect cost more, not less. What allows this to work is not excluding a known source or specifying a subset before the search starts, but making the IQ roll for analysis afterward. The simplest way for the GM to handle this is to make the Per roll, look up the margin on the Size and Speed/Range Table to find the range, and then have an IQ roll assess the nature of any appropriate targets within that radius. The better the IQ roll, the more specific the details.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:32 PM   #69
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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That doesn't connect with what Kromm says:
Well, you know, it kind of makes sense to me that matter and energy are equally hard to detect and equally encompassing.

And Kromm's statement has to be taken with a grain of salt. For example, take "Detect matter." Life, as you point out, is normally material. So should Detect Matter let you sense whether a mass of matter was alive or dead? Or if you have Detect Minerals, will it let you know that a lump of rock is a silicon-based lifeform? Probably not; the properties that make it "alive" are not properties of it qua "matter." They're in a different domain.

Suppose that I have "Detect Minerals," and you're holding a krugerrand in your hand. No doubt I can detect that it's gold, which is a mineral. I may well be able to tell its mass and that it's a disc. But can I tell that it's money, or estimate its value as money? And yet if I had "Detect Money" I presumably could.

Anyway, with really only a bare handful of categorical levels, we're going to have problems where a broader and a narrower category fall onto the same level.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:37 PM   #70
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Well, you know, it kind of makes sense to me that matter and energy are equally hard to detect and equally encompassing.
I agree, but published material from the basic set doesn't.

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And Kromm's statement has to be taken with a grain of salt. For example, take "Detect matter." Life, as you point out, is normally material. So should Detect Matter let you sense whether a mass of matter was alive or dead? Or if you have Detect Minerals, will it let you know that a lump of rock is a silicon-based lifeform?
If you have the Analyzing +100% enhancement and you make your IQ roll, then yes to both questions.
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