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Old 02-25-2015, 09:10 AM   #111
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Both arms, as a bow is a two-handed weapon. (The tables even have the dagger next to the ST requirement). Also Striking ST, but not Lifting ST.

See this post (and thread) where Vicky quotes PK and Kromm.
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Old 02-06-2021, 04:30 AM   #112
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Sorry for 5 year necro!

Anyway I've been watching some videos from a channel called Tod's Workshop. You guys may already have come across him before. But he's got some (IMO) good stuff on archery and cross bows etc.

I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread just for a video link so I thought I'd tack it onto an old thread were some of this stuff was discussed.

This video is about the speed of firing a Crossbow vs. Longbow, no real surprises there but the chat afterwards broadens out in terms of the nature of training for and using heavy bows and roles for Longbow vs. Crossbow.


He's got a bunch of other stuff as well, (I've only really watched his bow/crossbow stuff), yes arrows vs. different armour is in there.

I'm guessing he'd be a fan of Douglas Cole's "Deadly Spring" because he make's a lot of the points illustrated in that article, Bow efficiency and inertia etc!


P.S. he does a video on Arrows/Bullets vs. Sandbags as well, which dips into the very different ballistics of Arrows and Bullets
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-08-2021 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 11-28-2022, 05:47 AM   #113
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Sorry another necro with more videos from the same channel

(they crowd sourced to do more extended version of the last one)



Here's the main one, where they shoot arrows as set of armour of mixed mail and plate

But there are some shorter supplementary videos that go into some of the aspects in more detail and the thinking behind their choices and methodology

Warbows, draw weight etc

arrows vs. flat metal plates of various types, to establish baseline of performance of the materials

Arrow head materials test to establish base lines

Arrows vs. mail of couple of types again to establish base lines


Bearing in mind the harness in transitional (lots of mail), but pretty interesting stuff.

I particularly liked the details like a proper Aventail with almost rigid mail and backing giving pretty significantly different results to other bits of mail



Sorry I've not been around much so these may have already cropped up in threads

Anyway cheers

Tomsdad




EDIT: I may have tacked this on to the a different thread from the one I linked their first test on, but it's a good enough thread (here's the link to the first test they did anyway)
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Old 11-29-2022, 06:42 AM   #114
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

It is a decent test. Some random observations.

Joe is using Extra Effort to shoot that bow because he tires way too fast. In battle they used bows that were lighter than the ones they trained with to reduce the rate of fatigue.

He is also way too close. Archers only had one shot before a knight moved 25 yards to hit him. At those ranges the archers aren't standing there still shooting; they are dropping bows and drawing hand weapons or running away.

This is the the first arrows-vs-armour test I have seen that attempts replicate the mail that was actually worn at the time instead of using the modern commercial Indian mail.

None of the arrows would have hit the skirt at longer ranges. Arrows would be arcing down to hit the head, shoulders, and upper torso. If the skirt was vulnerable to these arrows, they would have worn an additional layer of protection.

As Toby says, the mail that they used in that test was intended to be a supplemental defence, not the primary armour. Mail that was specifically designed to stop arrows was heavier and denser.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 11-29-2022 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 11-29-2022, 07:36 AM   #115
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
It is a decent test. Some random observations.

Joe is using Extra Effort to shoot that bow because he tires way too fast. In battle they used bows that were lighter than the ones they trained with to reduce the rate of fatigue.

He is also way too close. Archers only had one shot before a knight moved 25 yards to hit him. At those ranges the archers aren't standing there still shooting; they are dropping bows and drawing hand weapons or running away.

This is the the first arrows-vs-armour test I have seen that attempts replicate the mail that was actually worn at the time instead of using the modern commercial Indian mail.

None of the arrows would have hit the skirt at longer ranges. Arrows would be arcing down to hit the head, shoulders, and upper torso. If the skirt was vulnerable to these arrows, they would have worn an additional layer of protection.

As Toby says, the mail that they used in that test was intended to be a supplemental defence, not the primary armour. Mail that was specifically designed to stop arrows was heavier and denser.



I get the point on the range (clearly set up for practical reasons) but with such heavy arrows would the range make that much difference. In terms of energy at impact?

(I take you point about angle effecting the likelihood of mail being hit square on though)


Good point about the bow use and fatigue. Thing is Fatigue and Extra Effort vs. not using either is pretty binary in GURPS. In reality there is range in between no effort at all I can do this every second of the entire day and 1FP per action. (I liked* AP for this as a more midway point)

Plus we don't know how often and at what rate Joe Gibbs was actually firing during the day overall.

Also he seem to be drawing and aiming (often at specific areas on the target) in a way he might not do when shooting at areas at specific ranges. That might be factor, it might not

Seeing if he could achieve and sustain some of the claimed rates of fire at Agincourt even if it just shooting patch of ground 200 yards away with a 160lb bow would be a good extra test though.



I do also take the point about the difference between mail as the primary method of protection against arrows in some places and as the ancillary one in others. They themselves make the point that the mail varied even within their amour set. And for me the Aventail is a great example of this. They also make the point that vs. hand held melee weapons both are fine.



Looking at your point about commercial available mail vs. well made stuff, what did you think of base line test they did vs. patches of it? There didn't seem to be much difference is their effectiveness. Do you think with a lighter bow you would have seen a more pronounced and meaningful difference? Of course that was also one shot per arrow type not enough get a good result really (which again they do say to be fair)






*sorry to be clear I still like it, I'm just not running anything at the moment (which is why I haven't been posting much recently)
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-29-2022 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:05 PM   #116
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Sorry another necro with more videos from the same channel

(they crowd sourced to do more extended version of the last one)



Here's the main one, where they shoot arrows as set of armour of mixed mail and plate

But there are some shorter supplementary videos that go into some of the aspects in more detail and the thinking behind their choices and methodology

Warbows, draw weight etc

arrows vs. flat metal plates of various types, to establish baseline of performance of the materials

Arrow head materials test to establish base lines

Arrows vs. mail of couple of types again to establish base lines


Bearing in mind the harness in transitional (lots of mail), but pretty interesting stuff.

I particularly liked the details like a proper Aventail with almost rigid mail and backing giving pretty significantly different results to other bits of mail



Sorry I've not been around much so these may have already cropped up in threads

Anyway cheers

Tomsdad




EDIT: I may have tacked this on to the a different thread from the one I linked their first test on, but it's a good enough thread (here's the link to the first test they did anyway)
Very good material to watch, thanks. I've to say that the mail involved in the transitional armour test probably would be just GURPS Light Mail (DR 3/1*) for the mail shirt^ and GURPS Heavy Mail (DR 5/3*) for the aventail, with the collar being Banded Heavy Mail (DR 5). Light Mail isn't standalone armour, and it isn't proofed against heavy warbows shooting heavy arrows at close range, so the abdomen protected just by Light Mail layer is a big weak spot in the harness.

The hit on armpits is a good example of aiming at the chinks of the armour, while the hit on segmented rerebrace that got stuck is a good example of critical hit with a 6 in a roll dice, which halved - rounded down - the DR of the rerebrace because the hit between the plates (DR 3 to DR 1) and then got past the Light Mail shirt.



^ I'd say Light Mail and not Fine Mail because IMO Fine Mail should be something a little denser and studier, and the mail weave seems to be quite light especially regarding the mail skirt.

Last edited by Rasna; 11-29-2022 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:53 PM   #117
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

There's a fair amount of stuff that's more dramatic presentation than anything there's a good research reason to do. In particular, once they benchmarked the longbow, there's no reason they shouldn't have just used the matched performance crossbow for all remaining tests. It would also make repeating the tests at different energy levels (for different archers, or different ranges) a lot easier.
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