(IC) Lost in Dreams (Julian)

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Of course there is! Just look at what the experts say!

I read what the experts have to say. Do they sound more knowledgeable than everyone who came out of the woodwork over that chatbot?

Turns out that choosing a departure date that used to be in the future has its perks. Julian probably heard about ChatGPT.

Originally Posted by ericthered

No, they remained essentially healthy.

Then why have they banned the practice? The ban went into place before the concordance. If they were fine, why did they decide to ban the practice?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Their definition seems to be the mass creation of individuals via exowomb via mass request.

Well, I suppose that's a fair answer.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Holy Grail" names are for things you haven't found yet!

Well, the tallest mountain doesn't stop being the tallest after someone reaches the top. Someone clearly found a taller mountain and it took the title.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Having everyone different ages, having so few kids, having the people who raise you have some other job... You aren't from a family? then how are you being raised?"

"I was at an orphanage. It was... It left me wondering a lot about my parents. Why I wasn't with them, and stuff like that... This whole cloning thing; it doesn't really sit right with me. Though I guess that the orphanage did have parts not like a creche. Different ages, for one."

Originally Posted by ericthered

Maybe Julian can tell the difference? They look pretty similar. Makeup and clothing is quite different, but he's not sure about the rest.

That's about what I had in mind when I heard clone... "Do you deliberately dress differently from other Sophies so it's hard to confuse you?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"She still had a choice. more of one than I have."

"Yeah, it sucks having to take what you get."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No, because I love that they cared, and because Creche Worker wasn't my statistically likely profession. Medicine was."

"Did you get to choose? Or did they choose for you after they got to know you better?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I could see that. But it depends on the society, and what they gave me back."

"What did they give you back? Community in your creche, a happy childhood?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They tried to have at least two. I've mentioned nursing."

"Oh, I was under the impression that was something you learned after you left the creche, not an option you had while there."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No one started a war over it."

"I take it that the closure that affected you had nothing to do with the Concordance. The world's already too full at just over a billion?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Because I'm good at it and it feels good to help people."

"The closest job you can get to Creche worker?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I don't know that I find that true or comforting"

"I guess I could be wrong."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Which children would be mine?

"The ones you give birth to or adopt?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

which culture and tradition would I be part of?

"Well, do you have to be? A tradition of just a few is as valid as a tradition of billion."

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'd just feel torn too many ways."

"Well, don't listen to me. I can barely sort out my own life."

--

"When you were in a Creche, growing up or working there, did you have to deal with transfers? Were they accepted?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

It does.

Its considered "abandoned". Perishables may be handled/liquidated by a management company that holds the funds.

This is hard to sort out... there are lots of laws on this. some involve fines.

You only run into Panogan cases: its seems the internet here is Panogan.

You find an number of complaints about people loosing enormous amounts of money because of lost because a lot of what you need to operate is rented, not owned, and because defaulting on contracts frequently involves financial penalties. Several refer to this effect as an effective "Fine".

That doesn't really paint the concordance in a good light. They're the ones renting everything out, right? Create the conditions to gratuitously punish someone without actually taking responsibility for it.

Do the management companies ever get the funds back to the bearers of the property liquidated?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I read what the experts have to say. Do they sound more knowledgeable than everyone who came out of the woodwork over that chatbot?

Yes, but that's a low bar. They don't have any evidence along the lines of a machine rebellion or anything.

Then why have they banned the practice? The ban went into place before the concordance. If they were fine, why did they decide to ban the practice?

Because they were worried it could set up a social obligation for future clones to do the same thing.

Well, the tallest mountain doesn't stop being the tallest after someone reaches the top. Someone clearly found a taller mountain and it took the title.

That's fair. My favorite definition of general AI is "Things we can't get a computer to do yet"

"I was at an orphanage. It was... It left me wondering a lot about my parents. Why I wasn't with them, and stuff like that... This whole cloning thing; it doesn't really sit right with me. Though I guess that the orphanage did have parts not like a creche. Different ages, for one."

"what's an orphanage? You had parents, but they you lost them? That's terrible. So its like the worst parts of both a family an a creche? I know its really hard for anyone who wasn't part of the creche from the start"

That's about what I had in mind when I heard clone... "Do you deliberately dress differently from other Sophies so it's hard to confuse you?"

"I have my own look. And especially if I'm spending a lot of time around another Sophie."

"Did you get to choose? Or did they choose for you after they got to know you better?"

"I chose."

"What did they give you back? Community in your creche, a happy childhood?"

"My Creche, mostly. And the high standard of living."

"Oh, I was under the impression that was something you learned after you left the creche, not an option you had while there."

"It was both. I chose creche worker over medicine, and then had to go back and learn to do medicine."

"I take it that the closure that affected you had nothing to do with the Concordance. The world's already too full at just over a billion?"

"Who knows. I'm sure it was both."

"The closest job you can get to Creche worker?"

"They're not really that close. They're both working with people to help them. I had creche-mates who learned nursing, and they encouraged me."

"The ones you give birth to or adopt?"

"Then what does that say about my commitment to the kids in the creche?"

"Well, do you have to be? A tradition of just a few is as valid as a tradition of billion."

"A tradition is only meaningful if shared and repeated."

"Well, don't listen to me. I can barely sort out my own life."

"You're what? 14? 15? you have plenty of time to figure things out."

"When you were in a Creche, growing up or working there, did you have to deal with transfers? Were they accepted?"

"No, swaps generally don't happen until a older age than I had time to work with."

Do the management companies ever get the funds back to the bearers of the property liquidated?

Sort of... typically the funds are given to their heirs upon death.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Yes, but that's a low bar. They don't have any evidence along the lines of a machine rebellion or anything.

Have they done experiments or anything?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Because they were worried it could set up a social obligation for future clones to do the same thing.

And I guess they're OK with that because being predisposed to just one very in demand career path is cool with these people.

Originally Posted by ericthered

That's fair. My favorite definition of general AI is "Things we can't get a computer to do yet"

You know, that really tracks. Chess, voice recognition, Watson... So quick from 'intelligence!?' to 'eh, so what'.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"what's an orphanage? You had parents, but they you lost them? That's terrible. So its like the worst parts of both a family an a creche? I know its really hard for anyone who wasn't part of the creche from the start"

"Well, it's a place where they send abandoned, mistreated and similar children to long-term. Rupert and Rose's parents died, Melanie's mother had substance abuse problems and couldn't take care of her, Tim's father abandoned him after his mother vanished, Myla... I don't remember what her deal was. Most of them knew their parents, even if they hated them. I never did."

I sigh, "Well if growing up with a mix of children of all ages is that awful..." I rather not talk about the parts that made it really awful.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I have my own look. And especially if I'm spending a lot of time around another Sophie."

"Does that come up often? Surely there's lots of Sophies working in hospitals."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"My Creche, mostly. And the high standard of living."

Hm... Everyone says there's this great standard of living. Do the statistics bear this out? What are other worlds like?

Originally Posted by ericthered

"It was both. I chose creche worker over medicine, and then had to go back and learn to do medicine."

"Was it really awkward going back to school after the first job didn't work out? Was it the same school that the younger clones were going through?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They're not really that close. They're both working with people to help them. I had creche-mates who learned nursing, and they encouraged me."

"A lot more technical? More medicine, less nurturing?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Then what does that say about my commitment to the kids in the creche?"

"Well, it's not like it's not as if 'creche worker' is a one and done job, right? There's always another generation."

"What happened when the creche was closed anyway? Did they just bust up the creche into smaller parts and ship the kids all over? Do you keep in contact with them?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"A tradition is only meaningful if shared and repeated."

"Well, you'd share it with your children. Just like I bet you shared traditions with the creche workers who raised you. Someone has to be the one to start it."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"You're what? 14? 15? you have plenty of time to figure things out."

"Fourteen, yeah. Fifteen in September. It feels like I never get enough time."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No, swaps generally don't happen until a older age than I had time to work with."

So much for imagining what it would be like to get dumped into the system here...

Originally Posted by ericthered

Sort of... typically the funds are given to their heirs upon death.

I guess they can't recant and get the money before they die.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Have they done experiments or anything?

Very small ones indicating its "possible" rather than "probable" or "predictive".

And I guess they're OK with that because being predisposed to just one very in demand career path is cool with these people.

I just indicated they weren't ok with making people feel obligated to expose themselves to diseases they are theoretically immune to.

"Well, it's a place where they send abandoned, mistreated and similar children to long-term. Rupert and Rose's parents died, Melanie's mother had substance abuse problems and couldn't take care of her, Tim's father abandoned him after his mother vanished, Myla... I don't remember what her deal was. Most of them knew their parents, even if they hated them. I never did."

I sigh, "Well if growing up with a mix of children of all ages is that awful..." I rather not talk about the parts that made it really awful.

"Is that normally how loosing your family goes?"

"Does that come up often? Surely there's lots of Sophies working in hospitals."

"It happens enough. Its not like every 200th person is a sophie though."


Hm... Everyone says there's this great standard of living. Do the statistics bear this out? What are other worlds like?

"Was it really awkward going back to school after the first job didn't work out? Was it the same school that the younger clones were going through?"

"It wasn't a technical creche. It was a school. I was more worried about the new experience and being a clone than looking like I was stupid or anything."

"A lot more technical? More medicine, less nurturing?"

"A little more technical... and you see a lot more people really quickly. Creche worker requires a lot of skill too."

"Well, it's not like it's not as if 'creche worker' is a one and done job, right? There's always another generation."

"And there's always the kids you helped. If you forget about them and never speak again you're doing it wrong."

"What happened when the creche was closed anyway? Did they just bust up the creche into smaller parts and ship the kids all over? Do you keep in contact with them?"

"I was still assisting with the infants, it takes a lot more care. I hadn't received a creche to bring up. Maybe I never will. The one I was in line for was cancelled."

"Well, you'd share it with your children. Just like I bet you shared traditions with the creche workers who raised you. Someone has to be the one to start it."

"Maybe. I'd still rather just have the creche."

"Fourteen, yeah. Fifteen in September. It feels like I never get enough time."

"Its not about time to do things. Its time to become things."

So much for imagining what it would be like to get dumped into the system here...

I've been trying to drop hints here and there...

I guess they can't recant and get the money before they die.

In rare exceptions.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I just indicated they weren't ok with making people feel obligated to expose themselves to diseases they are theoretically immune to.

Oh, yeah, but Julian's comparing and contrasting this exanple with everything else he's heard about cloning and the "well if we have to clone copies of you" response he got from Florence, Seven, and the others. Here's Julian's thinking on this.

OK, so the people around here don't really seem to mind creating people who will naturally favor one career over another en masse. Sophie here is an example of this. Sure, Sophies have a great deal of possible careers, but between the educational options associated with each creche, she basically got funnelled towards two jobs. I can buy that the creche personnel would have supported this Sophie (or any Sophie) if she wanted to go for a career path that required a different educational creche or one that was completely against "pattern". Like if a hypothetical Sophie wanted to study electrical engineering or upper management, I can believe that she would get support from the rest of the creche. But between, having to go to another educational facility with other clones who are part of the same creche, struggling while your creche-mates are getting difficult topics so easily, and the like, the creche workers would be irresponsible to not give hypothetical Sophie a reality check.

Now let's jump back to how Florence seeks to proceed with my DNA. Either she figures out what exactly let's me hear a starpus, or she doesn't. If she doesn't, then she has indicated that making clones of me is something she can get behind, and apparently other people can too (Let's call them Justins, as they're "Just in case"). And if she does figure it out, they'll make a custom design that's best equipped to do all the work interfacing with a Starpus. I suppose parents could also engineer their children to hear Starpi, but I doubt that Panagos will end up doing that.

Let's focus on the Justins first. A Justin is created, and assigned to a creche where they have a better childhood than I ever had. When they're... I dunno, 10? My age? They're asked what they want to do with their lives. With the half-dozen or so options they get, are they really going to pass on the one option that's special only to them? The one option that Panagos really needs? The one option that's so in demand that they'll miles richer than anyone else? The one option, that when they were you and impressionable, and going online to look up, "famous Justin-pattern clones", they got pages and pages of results that all have "Starpi Navigator" under occupation? "Oh sure Justin, maybe your dream is to become a musician, but you gotta think about all the clones who already have perfect pitch. Maybe you should think about Starpi Navigator, if only as a backup." If Justins have all this pressure on them, what chance are that clones crafted to relate to Starpi will be able to resist? If what they put into those clones are anything like Sophies, they're going to have this star-shaped hole in their heart that aches for a telepathic invertebrate to crawl into and make them feel whole.


"When did you have to decide you wanted to study to become a Creche worker?"

"Did any of your creche-mates end up pursuing career paths really unusual for their pattern?"

I look up Panagos's population growth rate. How much of it is composed of births to parental families, and how many of those are engineered?

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Is that normally how loosing your family goes?"

"Well, I guess. Some orphans have relatives who take them in, but that obviously doesn't apply here. I think in other parts of the world they have smaller institutions or they're placed in the care of somebody certified by the state... Theoretically kids get adopted into a permanent home, but that's less likely the older you get." I mumble, "Never happened where I was either."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"It happens enough. Its not like every 200th person is a sophie though."

Hm... How many different patterns of clones are there anyway? Do they have patterns that share similar personality types and such (i.e. A "Nathan" or a "Robin" who helps everyone get along and love each other?)

"Do you find it easy to relate to someone so similar?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

Hm...

Oops, flipped question again..

Hm... Everyone says there's this great standard of living. Do the statistics bear this out? What are other worlds like?

Originally Posted by ericthered

"It wasn't a technical creche. It was a school. I was more worried about the new experience and being a clone than looking like I was stupid or anything."

"Well, weren't you like older than your other classmates or anything?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"A little more technical... and you see a lot more people really quickly. Creche worker requires a lot of skill too."

"Oh, I didn't mean to imply anything like you didn't need any skill. Just that it seemed more like a..." I drum my fingers, "A lawyer or a teacher than a mechanic or a do-- diagnostician."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"And there's always the kids you helped. If you forget about them and never speak again you're doing it wrong."

"Yeah... I know."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I was still assisting with the infants, it takes a lot more care. I hadn't received a creche to bring up. Maybe I never will. The one I was in line for was cancelled."

"Do you think they'll open more creches again?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its not about time to do things. Its time to become things."

"Yeah, a stupid kid becoming a worthless adult."

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've been trying to drop hints here and there...

Well there's traces of what it would look like, but not quite enough for someone as skittish as Julian to make the leap. And that's still leaving out the stress of having to ask Royal to let him go. And I'd feel bad for blowing up the story.

Originally Posted by ericthered

So its like the worst parts of both a family an a creche?

I think about what she asked me. "What would you say the worst parts of a creche are? I suppose the different ages, parents who work other job and the number of children are the worst parts of a family."

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Oh, yeah, but Julian's comparing and contrasting this example with everything else he's heard about cloning and the "well if we have to clone copies of you" response he got from Florence, Seven, and the others. Here's Julian's thinking on this.

OK, so the people around here don't really seem to mind creating people who will naturally favor one career over another en masse. Sophie here is an example of this. Sure, Sophies have a great deal of possible careers, but between the educational options associated with each creche, she basically got funnelled towards two jobs. I can buy that the creche personnel would have supported this Sophie (or any Sophie) if she wanted to go for a career path that required a different educational creche or one that was completely against "pattern". Like if a hypothetical Sophie wanted to study electrical engineering or upper management, I can believe that she would get support from the rest of the creche. But between, having to go to another educational facility with other clones who are part of the same creche, struggling while your creche-mates are getting difficult topics so easily, and the like, the creche workers would be irresponsible to not give hypothetical Sophie a reality check.

Now let's jump back to how Florence seeks to proceed with my DNA. Either she figures out what exactly let's me hear a starpus, or she doesn't. If she doesn't, then she has indicated that making clones of me is something she can get behind, and apparently other people can too (Let's call them Justins, as they're "Just in case"). And if she does figure it out, they'll make a custom design that's best equipped to do all the work interfacing with a Starpus. I suppose parents could also engineer their children to hear Starpi, but I doubt that Panagos will end up doing that.

Let's focus on the Justins first. A Justin is created, and assigned to a creche where they have a better childhood than I ever had. When they're... I dunno, 10? My age? They're asked what they want to do with their lives. With the half-dozen or so options they get, are they really going to pass on the one option that's special only to them? The one option that Panagos really needs? The one option that's so in demand that they'll miles richer than anyone else? The one option, that when they were you and impressionable, and going online to look up, "famous Justin-pattern clones", they got pages and pages of results that all have "Starpi Navigator" under occupation? "Oh sure Justin, maybe your dream is to become a musician, but you gotta think about all the clones who already have perfect pitch. Maybe you should think about Starpi Navigator, if only as a backup." If Justins have all this pressure on them, what chance are that clones crafted to relate to Starpi will be able to resist? If what they put into those clones are anything like Sophies, they're going to have this star-shaped hole in their heart that aches for a telepathic invertebrate to crawl into and make them feel whole.

Pretty much.

they're going to have this star-shaped hole in their heart that aches for a telepathic invertebrate to crawl into and make them feel whole.

LoL. Very vivid.

"When did you have to decide you wanted to study to become a Creche worker?"

"About 14 years old"

"Did any of your creche-mates end up pursuing career paths really unusual for their pattern?"

"Brigim went a lot more artistic than you would have expected. Lelana followed form for her genome, but sought out training beyond what the creche put in front of us."

I look up Panagos's population growth rate. How much of it is composed of births to parental families, and how many of those are engineered?

About 30% of the births are associated with Parental Families... the highest in Panogan history. Figuring out the rate of gene tweaking there is hard, between simple screening, "natural conception", simple tweaks, and a bunch of other stuff. You could argue for a number between 20% (for minimal fiddling) and 70% (for some degree of relatedness).

"Well, I guess. Some orphans have relatives who take them in, but that obviously doesn't apply here. I think in other parts of the world they have smaller institutions or they're placed in the care of somebody certified by the state... Theoretically kids get adopted into a permanent home, but that's less likely the older you get." I mumble, "Never happened where I was either."

"That's a shame. I wonder what happens to people like that here."

Hm... How many different patterns of clones are there anyway? Do they have patterns that share similar personality types and such (i.e. A "Nathan" or a "Robin" who helps everyone get along and love each other?)

Given the codes you find... UX-547 would indicate there are hundreds and even thousands of patterns, but not likely more than ten thousand. Some patterns are much more popular. And there is a lot of overlap in personality patterns.

"Do you find it easy to relate to someone so similar?"

"Only to some of them. Some Sophie's drive me up the wall."

"Well, weren't you like older than your other classmates or anything?"

Than a lot of them. But they were all different ages, and they hadn't met each other before, so it didn't matter too much in the end.

"Oh, I didn't mean to imply anything like you didn't need any skill. Just that it seemed more like a..." I drum my fingers, "A lawyer or a teacher than a mechanic or a do-- diagnostician."

"People skills are different than mechanical skills, yes."

"Do you think they'll open more creches again?"

"This government never will. The war made sure of that. If Sachwin wins? They probably will."

"Yeah, a stupid kid becoming a worthless adult."

"Don't you dare think that way. You're not stupid, you're just overwhelmed. You can improve your life, and you can be happy. It might just take some time and work."

Well there's traces of what it would look like, but not quite enough for someone as skittish as Julian to make the leap. And that's still leaving out the stress of having to ask Royal to let him go. And I'd feel bad for blowing up the story.

don't feel bad blowing up the story. This is the ideal platform for it. Besides, Royal has contingencies and Julian has serendipity and weirdness magnet.

I think about what she asked me. "What would you say the worst parts of a creche are? I suppose the different ages, parents who work other job and the number of children are the worst parts of a family."

"I've never had a family, so I don't really have the experience to say... but this is what I've heard. Creche children have to rely hard on each other rather than on adults. Large amounts of adult attention... sounds pretty good. The competition in Creches can get pretty fierce. And the level of structure and scheduling in the Creche is really high... I know a lot of people struggle when they don't have that anymore."

Oops, flipped question again..

Hm... Everyone says there's this great standard of living. Do the statistics bear this out? What are other worlds like?

Its a big question to answer. The simple answer is yes.



The complex answer is that the gap was a lot bigger before the concordance. A lot of smaller colonies devoted a large portion of their existence to maintaining their essential technologies, like medicine, life support, and basic manufacturing. The entire colony would run on three inefficient but easy to maintain car designs. The Sol System, by contrast, was crowded to its gills, with the cost of tiny living quarters being through the roof. Panogos avoided both of these issues, having both lots of open land and resources and a large enough population to maintain a more complex leisure economy. Now that FTL is a thing, that advantage is going away: colonies are swelling in size from new immigration, and FTL lets colonies specialize and pool their resources into a larger economy, or draw goods from the Sol System... sort of. The Concordance seems to have a shaky relationship with large sectors of Sol.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Pretty much.

LoL. Very vivid.

I try.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"About 14 years old"

Well that certainly explains why Royal and company are pretty chill about letting me decide to work with them or not...

"So that's like, four to seven years of specialization after ten years of general schooling?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Brigim went a lot more artistic than you would have expected. Lelana followed form for her genome, but sought out training beyond what the creche put in front of us."

"That's like... Two out of a hundred?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

About 30% of the births are associated with Parental Families... the highest in Panogan history. Figuring out the rate of gene tweaking there is hard, between simple screening, "natural conception", simple tweaks, and a bunch of other stuff. You could argue for a number between 20% (for minimal fiddling) and 70% (for some degree of relatedness).

Hm. Even taking a high count, that's still like... 21% of all descendants being raised by families.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That's a shame. I wonder what happens to people like that here."

"The way Mr. Orgel's made it sound, the answer is, 'fobbed off on a technical creche'."

Wait... Oh no. Hopefully we can segue away from that.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"This government never will. The war made sure of that. If Sachwin wins? They probably will."

"Sachwin? That's the, uh," I make big finger quotes, "'rebels', right?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Don't you dare think that way. You're not stupid, you're just overwhelmed. You can improve your life, and you can be happy. It might just take some time and work."

"I don't know. I wasn't the best student to begin with, I've been away from school for over two months, and the school I went to is probably hopelessly behind whatever one I'd go to around here..." I shake my head and sigh. There's one way out. Maybe I should ask by allegory.

"If... If there was something that you could do, that makes you sick just thinking about it, but everyone else thought it was OK, and it seemed like the only way to make your life better, would you do it? If it meant, like, you would get to work in a creche again, but you had to do something you, and only you, found objectionable, would you do it?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

don't feel bad blowing up the story. This is the ideal platform for it. Besides, Royal has contingencies and Julian has serendipity and weirdness magnet.

Admittedly it's basically a tiebreaker to me here. Frex, if Julian couldn't decide whether to rip up and sell the spears or to turn them in, that would have broken the tie in favor of turning them in.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I've never had a family, so I don't really have the experience to say... but this is what I've heard. Creche children have to rely hard on each other rather than on adults. Large amounts of adult attention... sounds pretty good. The competition in Creches can get pretty fierce. And the level of structure and scheduling in the Creche is really high... I know a lot of people struggle when they don't have that anymore."

Well, I can't say that I'm not used to being unsupervised, or having to rely on other children. But being the new kid, relentless scheduling, competition, having to find a niche as a new kid in a place where school, the orphanage and maybe the whole town are all one and the same, where no one's coming and going? Urgh.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Its a big question to answer. The simple answer is yes.

The complex answer is that the gap was a lot bigger before the concordance. A lot of smaller colonies devoted a large portion of their existence to maintaining their essential technologies, like medicine, life support, and basic manufacturing. The entire colony would run on three inefficient but easy to maintain car designs. The Sol System, by contrast, was crowded to its gills, with the cost of tiny living quarters being through the roof. Panogos avoided both of these issues, having both lots of open land and resources and a large enough population to maintain a more complex leisure economy. Now that FTL is a thing, that advantage is going away: colonies are swelling in size from new immigration, and FTL lets colonies specialize and pool their resources into a larger economy, or draw goods from the Sol System... sort of. The Concordance seems to have a shaky relationship with large sectors of Sol.

I guess Panagos is now left with the choice between playing ball with the Concordance or falling behind as a proper interstellar economy begins to emerge. Or this third option of stealing a starpus or two and starting their own FTL program.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"So that's like, four to seven years of specialization after ten years of general schooling?"

"More like eight years of general schooling."

"That's like... Two out of a hundred?"

"No, there were 24 of us."

Hm. Even taking a high count, that's still like... 21% of all descendants being raised by families.

Yeah, the founders wanted the number to eventually go out of cloning mode.

"The way Mr. Orgel's made it sound, the answer is, 'fobbed off on a technical creche'."

"That's... well, I suppose they'd take them. That's not who the Creche's are for, but it should work. Eventually. I haven't heard of this before, but it makes sense."

"Sachwin? That's the, uh," I make big finger quotes, "'rebels', right?"

"Yes, its their stronghold. And the traditional center of our civilization"

"I don't know. I wasn't the best student to begin with, I've been away from school for over two months, and the school I went to is probably hopelessly behind whatever one I'd go to around here..." I shake my head and sigh. There's one way out. Maybe I should ask by allegory.

"We just need to find you something you're good at. There is plenty of work for everyone."

"If... If there was something that you could do, that makes you sick just thinking about it, but everyone else thought it was OK, and it seemed like the only way to make your life better, would you do it? If it meant, like, you would get to work in a creche again, but you had to do something you, and only you, found objectionable, would you do it?"

"I... suppose that depends on how objectionable the thing was. That kind of sounds like me and having a Family."



You make it sound like Julian thinks its moral to let everything happen in his head, but emotionally is very opposed to it, and feels a bit guilty about it.

I guess Panagos is now left with the choice between playing ball with the Concordance or falling behind as a proper interstellar economy begins to emerge. Or this third option of stealing a starpus or two and starting their own FTL program.

Pretty much.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"More like eight years of general schooling."

I pause to think. "Guess it makes no sense having nursery or reception when all the kids are all together all the time."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No, there were 24 of us."

Hm... One in twelve. That's not too bad. The other eleven are managed and go where you expect, but...

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That's... well, I suppose they'd take them. That's not who the Creche's are for, but it should work. Eventually. I haven't heard of this before, but it makes sense."

I exhale. "Hopefully it works better than it would seem."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Yes, its their stronghold. And the traditional center of our civilization"

"The first settlement and all that?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"We just need to find you something you're good at. There is plenty of work for everyone."

I start, "Yeah, I know what..." I trail off. I shouldn't tell her.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I... suppose that depends on how objectionable the thing was. That kind of sounds like me and having a Family."

I have to stifle a smile. It's strange how it all seems to come back to having to grapple with alien child-raising setups. Albeit from different sides of a cultural divide.

Originally Posted by ericthered

You make it sound like Julian thinks its moral to let everything happen in his head, but emotionally is very opposed to it, and feels a bit guilty about it.

Well, not quite. Emotionally, yeah he's dead set against it. His logical moral sense is uncertain. He can think of all kinds of reasons why it's bad, but at the same time he's faced with several people who think cloning is fine, if not good, and he sees evidence mounting for their position. This makes him feel a little queasy. Then bring in his morally-flexible self-interest, that's telling him he'll get everything he wants if he just goes along with this, and that's what's making him feel guilty. Or to anthropomorphize the internal struggle:

Julian's Heart: Lies! Lies! LIES! Brain! Prove her wrong!

Julian's Brain: I, I can't. S-she's making goo--

Julian's Heart: Shaddup! Those aren't good points! They're all lies! Self-dishonesty! Tell me all the terrible things that will happen if we work with these people and allow ourself to be cloned!

Julian's Gut: We'll want for nothing, and we'll barely need to do any work.

Julian's Heart: You aren't allowed to say that!

Now compared with the situation on Riask:

Julian's Heart: We can't give these spears to the guards. We can't trust authority! They're useless if not corrupt!

Julian's Brain: Yeah, searched my friends and their families under pretense of looking for enemy soldiers. They'll probably lie to cover up their own incompetence, and I don't want to get caught up in that. We should just put a stop to them ourselves.

Julian's Gut: Let's sell what we can. At least we'll eat well tonight.

Of course, even if Julian decides he can't cooperate, he'll still have to face the facts that this doesn't necessarily stop the cloning train. And that's a trickier problem than this active vs. passive choice.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I pause to think. "Guess it makes no sense having nursery or reception when all the kids are all together all the time."

I'm pretty sure you're referring to grades that don't exist in the US system. They start specializing at 14, so they start schooling at 6... but yeah, the structure looks a lot more like a class of students to start with.

"The first settlement and all that?"

"first Settlement, best spot, yeah."

I start, "Yeah, I know what..." I trail off. I shouldn't tell her.

I have to stifle a smile. It's strange how it all seems to come back to having to grapple with alien child-raising setups. Albeit from different sides of a cultural divide.

It really is strange... or is it a reflection on Julian?

Julian's Gut: We'll want for nothing, and we'll barely need to do any work.
........

Julian's Gut: Let's sell what we can. At least we'll eat well tonight.

I like Gut. Though Gut is arguably the most selfish of the three!

Of course, even if Julian decides he can't cooperate, he'll still have to face the facts that this doesn't necessarily stop the cloning train. And that's a trickier problem than this active vs. passive choice.

Yeah, I'm curious how he's going to deal with that.