(IC) Lost in Dreams (Julian)

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Do you want your ethics to be an accident?"

"Well if the alternative is having someone else architect my core beliefs, then yeah. People can perceive, think and make decisions. If you can't decide your core beliefs for yourself, are you really deciding anything?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

Naw, Panogos has added "Sophistry!" to its tools! though I suppose the other cloners use that too.

Well, Julian is compositing a few different things together here, not just 'constructed' vs. 'incidental' ethical systems. The cloning system is described as being built. The use of "slavery" to describe parental relationships is specifically called out as being used to break down instincts. Creches are described as pseudo-religious with child-rearing as a calling. Perhaps this is deliberately intended by the framers of the cloning system, who sought to ensure that cloning would endure well after natural growth could sustain Panagoan civilization?


"Would looking up information about the "radical cloner" worlds and the "mad cloners" trip any of your monitors?"

If not, I'll look up what information I can find about the motives of the mad cloners, and what the aims of the radical cloner worlds are exactly. The mad cloners seem to be expending a lot of effort to clone people for some reason, and the radical communities are said to be interested in reshaping human nature, but what does that even mean?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Well if the alternative is having someone else architect my core beliefs, then yeah. People can perceive, think and make decisions. If you can't decide your core beliefs for yourself, are you really deciding anything?"

"That's what I've been saying: that people ought to choose their ethics intentionally."

"Would looking up information about the "radical cloner" worlds and the "mad cloners" trip any of your monitors?"

"It would, but I can get you some clean information on those. A library or two unconnected from the net."

Perhaps this is deliberately intended by the framers of the cloning system, who sought to ensure that cloning would endure well after natural growth could sustain Panagoan civilization?

An interesting thought...


AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material
News stories about cloned people
History of Panogos around concordance contact
What 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means
Radial Cloners and Mad Cloners

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That's what I've been saying: that people ought to choose their ethics intentionally."

"I guess I misunderstood."

And then I guess we'll proceed on to 'Julian reads a bunch of books and articles, as well as talking to a cloned Panagoan'

Originally Posted by ericthered

AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material
News stories about cloned people
History of Panogos around concordance contact
What 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means
Radial Cloners and Mad Cloners

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"I guess I misunderstood."

**Naw, Seven is just trying to flip Julian's argument on its head, saying "choosing your ethics is important." Seven thinks having some intelligent person choose ethics is important, whereas Julian thinks its important for himself to choose his own ethics. But I do think we're ready to move on for now. we'll see what Julian does with all he finds out.

And then I guess we'll proceed on to 'Julian reads a bunch of books and articles, as well as talking to a cloned Panagoan'

Seven gets Julian a bunch of "Sanitized" information on his questions. It sounds like its essentially a snapshot of a chunk of their internet.

What 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means

The Concordance maintains that Cloning (or rather, creation of people without parents) cannot be practiced without effective slavery being the result. They say all economic incentives for cloning result in people whose choices and opportunities in life are limited and that any legal protections for them will be inevitably be eroded away until they are gone. Thus advocates for cloning are actually advocating slavery, and should be treated as such.

The Panogoan side generally claims this is speculation not backed up by the data from panogos.

News stories about cloned people

There are quite a few of these, spread out over a bunch of worlds. It seems to happen at least once a year, over the whole of whatever area these news articles have been gathered from, and over two hundred years. He doesn't have statistics on the stories. The majority of cases seem to be from the Sol System. Panogos also has a few, and others are scattered around. He doesn't have statistics on relative occurrences. The stories fall into a few categories. Some are strait up research studies in which something specific is being studied and the clones are little more than glorified lab rats. Some are a person electing to clone themselves a bunch of times rather than have kids the normal way. They always seem to be some sort of minor celebrity or billionaire. Some clone some publicly admired figure. The name "Einstein" sticks out to Julian, though he is not the most popular. And some seem to be done for... unsavory human trafficking purposes.

Radial Cloners and Mad Cloners

The stories here get a little crazier. The most famous is the YKP army, where a pariah state made an army of seven types genetically identical soldiers and a rigid indoctrination protocol. The YKP army destroyed itself in a bloody civil war. There is also Janal, in which a colony with strong leadership used cloning as a way to replace most of the existing populace in service of creating a "Utopia" more interested in serving its heads than in improving the lives of the populace. There was also the Worthchild Institute, which performed extreme genetic experiments that resulting in 95% of all children being deformed or mentally impaired and killed before adulthood. And all of these are only the most famous example.

Reading "official material

The materials seem more focused on the logistics of how clones are raised than anything else, but Julian is able to find the following:

• Membership in a birth Creche is considered extremely important, and the members aren't to be separated from each other until they are adults.
• Clones are encouraged to live with each other after adulthood as they start their lives as citizens.
• Clones are encouraged to have children of their own. This has a pretty low success rate: most clones interested in raising kids go back into the creche system to work.
• Creches don't all have equal access to the best training: some groups have access to better training creches, especially in some areas.
• Clones generally have access to multiple careers of multiple types, but its usually three to six very different single careers.
• Work on making it possible to willingly transfer between birth Creches is on-going, and its a thorny problem. The biggest difficulty is the new creche accepting the member.
• Job placement for clones is very streamlined, with the training creche helping to place them on their first job. They can go off and seek their own jobs, but few do, and its not encouraged.

For Another Post:
History of Panogos around concordance contact
Conversation with Clone

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

**Naw, Seven is just trying to flip Julian's argument on its head, saying "choosing your ethics is important." Seven thinks having some intelligent person choose ethics is important, whereas Julian thinks its important for himself to choose his own ethics. But I do think we're ready to move on for now. we'll see what Julian does with all he finds out.

Hm. If this were a different kind of game, this would lead to some kind of wacky sitcom plot with Julian not getting the equivocation.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven gets Julian a bunch of "Sanitized" information on his questions. It sounds like its essentially a snapshot of a chunk of their internet.

"Sanitized" sets off some mental alarm bells. The description quiets them, a little...

Originally Posted by ericthered

The Concordance maintains that Cloning (or rather, creation of people without parents) cannot be practiced without effective slavery being the result. They say all economic incentives for cloning result in people whose choices and opportunities in life are limited and that any legal protections for them will be inevitably be eroded away until they are gone. Thus advocates for cloning are actually advocating slavery, and should be treated as such.

The Panogoan side generally claims this is speculation not backed up by the data from Panogos.

Even when reading the hits keep coming.

Hm... So they oppose creation of people without parents. What do they do with unwanted children? By economic incentives, do they mean in a long term sense, in that in all probabilities that Panagos is heading towards a cloned underclass, or that Panagos is already a kind of slavery? I also look up the Concordance and Panagos treat speech crimes in general (what qualifies, what the penalties are). Even following their logic, I don't understand why they don't just deride and deplatform. No one in particular is getting hurt here.

Originally Posted by ericthered

There are quite a few of these, spread out over a bunch of worlds. It seems to happen at least once a year, over the whole of whatever area these news articles have been gathered from, and over two hundred years. He doesn't have statistics on the stories. The majority of cases seem to be from the Sol System. Panogos also has a few, and others are scattered around. He doesn't have statistics on relative occurrences.

I think some context got dropped. The news stories specifically were about the clones of specific people made on Panagos for research purposes that Seven mentioned the process would follow. These seem more like the 'twenty people cloned by some sicko' variety which Julian was also interested in, so that's convenient.

Originally Posted by ericthered

The stories fall into a few categories. Some are strait up research studies in which something specific is being studied and the clones are little more than glorified lab rats ... And some seem to be done for... unsavory human trafficking purposes.

Well at least they're not real. I hate myself for even thinking that. They probably thought that everything was normal and OK, too. Then some monster...

[147] 23-06-13 00:45:44 CEST
Bad Temper SCR
3d6 <= 15
1 + 4 + 4 = 9 ... success

I stop reading for a moment. I'm calm; I'm definitely calm. I lie down, feel the pillow on my head, and rest my eyes a minute. Just relax. My thoughts clear, I am okay. Then my time in the orphanage drifts back in, and I remember how no one did anything. I spring upright, and start thumping my pillow. I feel a little better, but I'm still angry at myself.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Some are a person electing to clone themselves a bunch of times rather than have kids the normal way. They always seem to be some sort of minor celebrity or billionaire.

Interesting. Seven mentioned that modern reproductive science wouldn't really work if cloning were properly banned, and the explanation of "advocating slavery" mentioned that "creating people without parents" was bad. Is this a crime too, or is it just frowned upon socially?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Some clone some publicly admired figure. The name "Einstein" sticks out to Julian, though he is not the most popular.

Hm... Who is, and who are they? I wonder how they got his DNA anyway...

And then I guess Julian looks it up and ends up learning that they removed and preserved Einstein's brain.

Wow, learn something new every day.

Originally Posted by ericthered

The stories here get a little crazier. The most famous is the YKP army, where a pariah state made an army of seven types genetically identical soldiers and a rigid indoctrination protocol. The YKP army destroyed itself in a bloody civil war. There is also Janal, in which a colony with strong leadership used cloning as a way to replace most of the existing populace in service of creating a "Utopia" more interested in serving its heads than in improving the lives of the populace. There was also the Worthchild Institute, which performed extreme genetic experiments that resulting in 95% of all children being deformed or mentally impaired and killed before adulthood. And all of these are only the most famous example.

What happened to these places? The Worthchild Institute seems like one of those "lab rat" experiments writ large, and it eventually got shutdown. What happened to the adults? Did Janal cave to pressure applied by the Concordance or is it ineffective? Was the pariah state finished after the civil war, or did the pariah state move back to regular troops?

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Membership in a birth Creche is considered extremely important, and the members aren't to be separated from each other until they are adults.

Well I'm not sure how clones would have much of a choice in being a member of a creche or not. How does the importance manifest? Like is it like being part of a social club? Do people make assumptions about personality?

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Clones are encouraged to live with each other after adulthood as they start their lives as citizens.

Seems reasonable given that they're apparently tightly knit.

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Clones are encouraged to have children of their own. This has a pretty low success rate: most clones interested in raising kids go back into the creche system to work.

Is there any evidence that this encouragement has been there since the beginning and failing consistently?

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Creches don't all have equal access to the best training: some groups have access to better training creches, especially in some areas.

That's kind of weird. This is all run by the Panagoan state, right? Why would they deliberately make it uneven? How do they decide which clones go to which creche? Maybe the Concordance is right, and this is like some kind of Brave New World ****.

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Clones generally have access to multiple careers of multiple types, but its usually three to six very different single careers.

How different? Like three different kinds of engineers? Or is it super different, like cashier, medical doctor, computer repairman, etc. How often is creche worker a career path offered?

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Work on making it possible to willingly transfer between birth Creches is on-going, and its a thorny problem. The biggest difficulty is the new creche accepting the member.

Why have they decided that's necessary? I suppose if there's drastic differences in educational outcomes that might make sense, but who decides when the child can transfer?

Originally Posted by ericthered

• Job placement for clones is very streamlined, with the training creche helping to place them on their first job. They can go off and seek their own jobs, but few do, and its not encouraged.

Hm... They assign creches that under-prepare particular clusters of clones, they are only setup for certain jobs, and they make it difficult to find a job outside the one that gets picked out for them. That doesn't sound so great.

--

And now some questions for the clone:

"Hi there. So, you were cloned. When exactly did you learn what that meant exactly?"

"Do you have any idea what your genetics were based on? Do you wonder sometimes about who your blood relations are?"

"Do you know why you were sent to a particular creche? If not, why do you think you were placed there?"

"Do you think your life would have been very different if you were sent to another creche? I understand that some are apparently better than others."

"Were the other people you were raised with and by, do you remain close?"

"Did you feel that you still had a choice in what job you've taken?"

"Does being a clone affect how you consider why you are here in the world?"

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Hm. If this were a different kind of game, this would lead to some kind of wacky sitcom plot with Julian not getting the equivocation.

I'm not that talented. Sad.

Hm... So they oppose creation of people without parents. What do they do with unwanted children? By economic incentives, do they mean in a long term sense, in that in all probabilities that Panagos is heading towards a cloned underclass, or that Panagos is already a kind of slavery? I also look up the Concordance and Panagos treat speech crimes in general (what qualifies, what the penalties are). Even following their logic, I don't understand why they don't just deride and deplatform. No one in particular is getting hurt here.

Its less about parents wanting the kids and more of opposition to institutions or people who don't want to see themselves as parents having kids.



They mean that the clones of Panogos were both created by people with the slaver mindset, and that Panogos is headed for a cloned underclass.


The Concordance treats speech crimes with "grounding". The offender is not able to travel using FTL. The rules seem to be No advocating for Slavery, Cloning (slavery), AI (slavery), or genetic engineering (slavery). They also seem to have some rules about ethnic tensions, or advocating for war. Panogos is a lot more lenient... or at least was. Julian is pretty sure he's looking at its peace-time policy.

I think some context got dropped. The news stories specifically were about the clones of specific people made on Panagos for research purposes that Seven mentioned the process would follow. These seem more like the 'twenty people cloned by some sicko' variety which Julian was also interested in, so that's convenient.

Right. The stories of copying individuals in Panogos are:
4 instances of an individual found to have a natural resistance to an extremely difficult to treat disease that killed thousands per year (only two instance had the same disease). two of those three diseases have a cure based on their genetics. Only four clones were infected with the diseases, all voluntary and as adults, but such an option has been banned today.

Interesting. Seven mentioned that modern reproductive science wouldn't really work if cloning were properly banned, and the explanation of "advocating slavery" mentioned that "creating people without parents" was bad. Is this a crime too, or is it just frowned upon socially?

It depends on the society. Laws are still not integrated, and each planet has had its legal system drift somewhat. The laws on this have gotten tighter more recently. There are a number of systems were such creations are legally your children. Its still in bad taste... most of the time. Three worlds don't mind if you clone yourself exactly once to have a child.

Hm... Who is, and who are they?

I set myself up for this, didn't I? Olivia Sullivan, for her work on reconciling quantum mechanics and relativity.

And then I guess Julian looks it up and ends up learning that they removed and preserved Einstein's brain.

I didn't look it up, but I figured there was no way someone didn't have that on file.

What happened to these places? The Worthchild Institute seems like one of those "lab rat" experiments writ large, and it eventually got shutdown.

Correct. And lots and lots of people arrested.

What happened to the adults?

Some were in adult care centers the rest of their lives. Some made lives for themselves, one way or another. One became a motivational speaker.

Did Janal cave to pressure applied by the Concordance or is it ineffective?

The Concordance facilitated an invasion of Janal, and its government was ended.

Was the pariah state finished after the civil war, or did the pariah state move back to regular troops?

The Pariah state was essentially finished. Its successor wasn't a great replacement, but it wasn't the same at all.

Well I'm not sure how clones would have much of a choice in being a member of a creche or not. How does the importance manifest? Like is it like being part of a social club? Do people make assumptions about personality?

Mostly a life-long social club. Members are supposed to form a support network for each other, mostly socially. Special legal rights are conferred between members of the same birth Creche, like the right be present at medical procedures.

Is there any evidence that this encouragement has been there since the beginning and failing consistently?

It was hoped between 50% to 80% would have families. The actual numbers are 5% to 25%, and its varied widely by time period. before the war it was at about 15%.

That's kind of weird. This is all run by the Panagoan state, right? Why would they deliberately make it uneven? How do they decide which clones go to which creche? Maybe the Concordance is right, and this is like some kind of Brave New World ****.

The Creche Managers request new kids from genetic databanks. Each Creche Facility seems to use the same infrastructure again and again. They can send their kids to different educational creches, but the spots have to be open.

How different? Like three different kinds of engineers? Or is it super different, like cashier, medical doctor, computer repairman, etc. How often is creche worker a career path offered?

super different: effort is made to have very different paths available, even if there are not a super large number. Though remember they don't have doctors here.

Why have they decided that's necessary? I suppose if there's drastic differences in educational outcomes that might make sense, but who decides when the child can transfer?

The use-case seems to be kids who really don't get along with the rest of their Creche.

"Hi there. So, you were cloned. When exactly did you learn what that meant exactly?"

"Hey, call me Sophie. T...Seven said you had some questions for me."


"They showed us sister birth creches incubating when I was four. I don't remember it. I think I started being aware of familial kids when I was about seven and we ran into a bunch of them at the zoo. I'd been told about them before, but seeing them really left an impression."

"Do you have any idea what your genetics were based on? Do you wonder sometimes about who your blood relations are?"

"I'm a UX-547.A Sophie. Yeah... 'Seven' asked me not to use my real name. So I'm using my version nickname. A popular pattern, if a bit old at this point. We generally have good health, great personal and memorization skills, but struggle a little with math and technology. The most famous UX-547 is probably Tyla Delansi Gallileo, who was the prime minister around 40 years ago."

"Do you know why you were sent to a particular creche? If not, why do you think you were placed there?"

"They were planning the composition and needed someone who could help everyone love each other, so they requested a Sophie. I wasn't placed in a creche. The creche needed me."

"Do you think your life would have been very different if you were sent to another creche? I understand that some are apparently better than others."

"That wouldn't be me. That would be some other Sophie. They've done alright for themselves. Some better, some worse. Comparing Creches isn't as straightforward as the number-crunchers would have you think. I don't know if I would have liked to be in a creche with a political path. Too much pressure. I suppose a higher management path would have been nice, but that's probably high pressure too."

"Were the other people you were raised with and by, do you remain close?"

"Yes. Even if I have to remind them to do it."

"Did you feel that you still had a choice in what job you've taken?"

"I'm a special case. I went into helping at the creches... but I lost that job. I had to learn nursing. That was really hard. I chose that career... but not my current job, I had to take what I can get. And I'd rather be back at with the Creches."

"Does being a clone affect how you consider why you are here in the world?"

"It sure does. It instilled me with a sense of community and what I can do to help. Though I'm sure my creche-mates would tell me I have that anyways."

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm not that talented. Sad.

Eh, don't worry about it. "Different kind of game" includes different character, different scenario, and probably being able to force alternative-Julian to not look up how people on Panagos come up with their ethical choices. Making how people decide their ethics to fit as the fulcrum of a game like this seems really hard to me too. Though I do think that as more people keep coming to the same conclusions as Seven the more Julian will be questioning his beliefs. Low Self Image + United Front of seemingly independent conclusions on cloning ethics = I'm out of touch. Right now, if the moral authority of the Concordance is destroyed in Julian's eyes then the one thing anchoring him to his current soft anti-cloning position will be severed and he'll likely be washed away in the Panagoan tide.

Originally Posted by ericthered

They mean that the clones of Panogos were both created by people with the slaver mindset, and that Panogos is headed for a cloned underclass.

Well if it was created by people with a slaver mindset it seems they weren't very good at actually implementing that goal.

Originally Posted by ericthered

The Concordance treats speech crimes with "grounding". The offender is not able to travel using FTL.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They then froze my parent's assets and demanded large fines. We went back to Panogos."

Hm... This punishment doesn't seem consistent with Seven's story. Are there penalties that other worlds implement in addition to the Concordance's? But how would they have made it back to Panagos? Maybe the "large fine" was a bribe paid to a FTL ship captain or something. The "frozen assets" could be stuff that that Seven's parents own offworld I guess...

Originally Posted by ericthered

The rules seem to be No advocating for Slavery, Cloning (slavery), AI (slavery), or genetic engineering (slavery).

I guess the arguments surrounding AI are basically the same as the clones?

Originally Posted by ericthered

They also seem to have some rules about ethnic tensions, or advocating for war. Panogos is a lot more lenient... or at least was. Julian is pretty sure he's looking at its peace-time policy.

Well I suppose it's a lot more lenient around cloning at least. Where aren't they more lenient? Hate speech?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Right. The stories of copying individuals in Panogos are:
4 instances of an individual found to have a natural resistance to an extremely difficult to treat disease that killed thousands per year (only two instance had the same disease). two of those three diseases have a cure based on their genetics. Only four clones were infected with the diseases, all voluntary and as adults, but such an option has been banned today.

So this would be really outside the norm... That does seem consistent with Florence's work. When was it banned, exactly? Recently under pressure from the Concordance?

Originally Posted by ericthered

It depends on the society. Laws are still not integrated, and each planet has had its legal system drift somewhat. The laws on this have gotten tighter more recently. There are a number of systems were such creations are legally your children. Its still in bad taste... most of the time. Three worlds don't mind if you clone yourself exactly once to have a child.

Hm... Well, what isn't a clone? Would taking the genetics of two people and scrambling them together not be a clone? Would mixing more than two be problematic? Or is it when you're getting picky where it becomes an issue?

Originally Posted by ericthered

I set myself up for this, didn't I? Olivia Sullivan, for her work on reconciling quantum mechanics and relativity.

I recall that that what the theory of everything is supposed to be. Hah, "Welcome to the future, there's more to everything".

Originally Posted by ericthered

Correct. And lots and lots of people arrested. Some were in adult care centers the rest of their lives. Some made lives for themselves, one way or another. One became a motivational speaker.

The Concordance facilitated an invasion of Janal, and its government was ended.

The Pariah state was essentially finished. Its successor wasn't a great replacement, but it wasn't the same at all.

Well, at least the Concordance seems somewhat capable at dealing with big problems even if they're a little overeager around here.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Mostly a life-long social club. Members are supposed to form a support network for each other, mostly socially. Special legal rights are conferred between members of the same birth Creche, like the right be present at medical procedures.

Stretching a little here...
It's an odd kind of social club when the other members can decide for you when you're incompetent. I guess it feels more right when it's the closest thing you have to family.

Originally Posted by ericthered

It was hoped between 50% to 80% would have families. The actual numbers are 5% to 25%, and its varied widely by time period. before the war it was at about 15%.

Wow, that's pretty low. What have they been doing to encourage this?

Originally Posted by ericthered

The Creche Managers request new kids from genetic databanks. Each Creche Facility seems to use the same infrastructure again and again. They can send their kids to different educational creches, but the spots have to be open.

Hm... So it's at least partially a matter of inertia? I guess they wouldn't necessarily have a reason to send anyone to a different creche, and if that's rare then they aren't going to have many extra spots available (if any).

Originally Posted by ericthered

super different: effort is made to have very different paths available, even if there are not a super large number.

Well that doesn't sound too bad.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Though remember they don't have doctors here.

Oh right. Still going to be a go-to for 'difficult, highly educated job.'
On a whim, I decide to check if people still get doctorate degrees from university...

Originally Posted by ericthered

The use-case seems to be kids who really don't get along with the rest of their Creche.

Does that happen very often? Or is it an edge case?

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Hey, call me Sophie. T...Seven said you had some questions for me."

"Oh, you know Seven? He seems like a good guy. Terrible what happened to his parents." I wonder if she might give more details on Seven's parents situation... I don't really want to have to ask him about it directly; it might make me sound like I think he's lying.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They showed us sister birth creches incubating when I was four. I don't remember it. I think I started being aware of familial kids when I was about seven and we ran into a bunch of them at the zoo. I'd been told about them before, but seeing them really left an impression."

I vaguely recall meeting other children with parents, in nursery. "What kind of impression? Were you jealous?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'm a UX-547. A Sophie. Yeah... 'Seven' asked me not to use my real name. So I'm using my version nickname. A popular pattern, if a bit old at this point. We generally have good health, great personal and memorization skills, but struggle a little with math and technology.

"Versions? You mean it's not randomized? Are there like, people who look just like you walking around? Are there people who go against type?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

The most famous UX-547 is probably Tyla Delansi Gallileo, who was the prime minister around 40 years ago."

A thought jumps into my head. "Where'd did she get her last name from?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They were planning the composition and needed someone who could help everyone love each other, so they requested a Sophie. I wasn't placed in a creche. The creche needed me."

"When did you learn that? Does knowing that you're a Sophie and here to help everyone get along a comfort as opposed to being left to wonder why you exist?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That wouldn't be me. That would be some other Sophie. They've done alright for themselves. Some better, some worse. Comparing Creches isn't as straightforward as the number-crunchers would have you think. I don't know if I would have liked to be in a creche with a political path. Too much pressure. I suppose a higher management path would have been nice, but that's probably high pressure too."

"Political? Higher management? Those are specific career paths?" I think for a moment, "Are those considered too similar to other social careers that they crowd others out?" This is getting a lot Brave New Worldy.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'm a special case. I went into helping at the creches... but I lost that job.

"I take it that's related to the closures."

Originally Posted by ericthered

I had to learn nursing. That was really hard. I chose that career... but not my current job, I had to take what I can get.

"What do you mean? Is creche work and nursing considered the same kind of career? Or are you saying you chose to enter nursing, but not which hospital or whatever where you work?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

And I'd rather be back at with the Creches."

"Have you considered filling the gap with family?" I bite my lip, that may have been a little rude...

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Hm... This punishment doesn't seem consistent with Seven's story. Are there penalties that other worlds implement in addition to the Concordance's? But how would they have made it back to Panagos? Maybe the "large fine" was a bribe paid to a FTL ship captain or something. The "frozen assets" could be stuff that that Seven's parents own offworld I guess...

Any investigation he will be doing?

I guess the arguments surrounding AI are basically the same as the clones?

Pretty much. Plus the existential threat argument.

Well I suppose it's a lot more lenient around cloning at least. Where aren't they more lenient? Hate speech?

Sedition and Libel, basically.

So this would be really outside the norm... That does seem consistent with Florence's work. When was it banned, exactly? Recently under pressure from the Concordance?

seven years after it happened, pre-concordance contact. It seems their actions led to the banning of the behavior.


Hm... Well, what isn't a clone? Would taking the genetics of two people and scrambling them together not be a clone? Would mixing more than two be problematic? Or is it when you're getting picky where it becomes an issue?

I recall that that what the theory of everything is supposed to be. Hah, "Welcome to the future, there's more to everything".

Who else would be more famous than Einstein for copying?

Wow, that's pretty low. What have they been doing to encourage this?

Mostly education, propaganda campaigns, and tax breaks.

Hm... So it's at least partially a matter of inertia? I guess they wouldn't necessarily have a reason to send anyone to a different creche, and if that's rare then they aren't going to have many extra spots available (if any).

Yeah, mostly this creche facility has a working relationship with these training facilities.

Oh right. Still going to be a go-to for 'difficult, highly educated job.'
On a whim, I decide to check if people still get doctorate degrees from university...

They do. It seems to be a quite common, though PhDs predominate.

Does that happen very often? Or is it an edge case?

Individually, its rare. In total? maybe 1 in 100. Though around 1 in 10 get considered for it, most of the time its considered more beneficial to "work it out"

"Oh, you know Seven? He seems like a good guy. Terrible what happened to his parents." I wonder if she might give more details on Seven's parents situation... I don't really want to have to ask him about it directly; it might make me sound like I think he's lying.

"He told you about that? yeah, real shame. He's pretty bitter about it."

I vaguely recall meeting other children with parents, in nursery. "What kind of impression? Were you jealous?"

"No, I was... weirded out."

"Versions? You mean it's not randomized? Are there like, people who look just like you walking around? Are there people who go against type?"

"There are minor variations in how we all look, but essentially. And there is a lot of variation in a type. I'm no prime minister. Though she's probably more of the exception than me"

A thought jumps into my head. "Where'd did she get her last name from?"

"Her Creche facility. Each Birth Creche facility chooses the name of a famous figure in history to be the last name of its children."

"When did you learn that? Does knowing that you're a Sophie and here to help everyone get along a comfort as opposed to being left to wonder why you exist?"

"Slowly. They always tell you about it, but you don't really get it until you're a teenager, and you realize that yeah, someone say down and planned this out as best they could, and one day you could be the person who does that, or know that person."


"I suppose its a comfort? we're also taught we were created to help each other and to build a thriving society. You don't need to be from the creche's to believe that."

"Political? Higher management? Those are specific career paths?" I think for a moment, "Are those considered too similar to other social careers that they crowd others out?" This is getting a lot Brave New Worldy.

"They are specific career paths, yes. I don't know if they offer lower-stress careers with similar aptitues along side it. Maybe?"

"I take it that's related to the closures."

"Yes, but not those closures. earlier ones."

"What do you mean? Is creche work and nursing considered the same kind of career? Or are you saying you chose to enter nursing, but not which hospital or whatever where you work?"

"I chose to enter nursing, but not which hospital"

"Have you considered filling the gap with family?" I bite my lip, that may have been a little rude...

"I have, but I haven't given up my dream of working with a creche. A family is so... I wouldn't know how to do it. And I'd give up ever working where I want to work. I don't think I could do both."

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Any investigation he will be doing?

Well let's see:
Let's start by looking at whether the Concordance has some exception for ferrying people back to their homeworld even if under a ban.
Next, let's look at what happens to property abandoned by people who no longer have access to FTL travel. Surely that might be in the news or have some policy.
After that let's see if other worlds have their own laws in line with the Concordance's policy on promoting slavery. Maybe the fine wasn't the Concordance, but the Concordance's influence led to the law that issued the fine?
Maybe there are other people have described their run-ins with Concordance anti-cloning policy somewhere online. Even assuming the worst case, they're not likely to be making things up.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Pretty much. Plus the existential threat argument.

Is there any evidence it is an existential risk?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Sedition and Libel, basically.

Well that's a little concerning...

Originally Posted by ericthered

seven years after it happened, pre-concordance contact. It seems their actions led to the banning of the behavior.

Hm... I take it that the clones who were infected with the diseases didn't necessarily fair so well, even if they were the ones who helped develop a cure.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Hm... Well, what isn't a clone?

Well I can't answer that. Guess that question that got missed.
Hm... Well, what isn't a clone? Would taking the genetics of two people and scrambling them together not be a clone? Would mixing more than two be problematic? Or is it when you're getting picky where it becomes an issue?

Originally Posted by ericthered

Who else would be more famous than Einstein for copying?

It was more Julian reflecting on Olivia not being credited for the theory of everything.

Originally Posted by ericthered

They do. It seems to be a quite common, though PhDs predominate.

Well at least the word is still around.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Individually, its rare. In total? maybe 1 in 100. Though around 1 in 10 get considered for it, most of the time its considered more beneficial to "work it out"

It probably is better to "work it out". You can't get along with everyone and it's probably best to get used to that sooner or later.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No, I was... weirded out."

Interesting. "What makes it seem so weird?" I mumble a little, "I always felt they were the lucky ones..."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"There are minor variations in how we all look, but essentially.

Instead of asking directly, I bring up a picture of Tyla Galileo and compare. Now that I think about it, shouldn't that be Galilei?

Originally Posted by ericthered

And there is a lot of variation in a type. I'm no prime minister. Though she's probably more of the exception than me"

"Who can say? Her early life experiences were decided and managed by someone else. The within was selected, the without was also selected. Someone decided to place her on a path that led to the premiership, someone else placed you on a path to the creche. I guess the difference is that someone leaned on the table and knocked you off."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Slowly. They always tell you about it, but you don't really get it until you're a teenager, and you realize that yeah, someone say down and planned this out as best they could, and one day you could be the person who does that, or know that person."

"Does it not bother you that everything up to your first job is planned by someone else?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I suppose its a comfort? we're also taught we were created to help each other and to build a thriving society. You don't need to be from the creche's to believe that."

"I dunno, if someone told me, 'you exist to help the group care more for each other, to help each other, and to build a prosperous society. Now hop to.' I think I might resent that."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They are specific career paths, yes.

"Pfft. Special education and upbringing to count the money and lie to people."

Originally Posted by ericthered

I don't know if they offer lower-stress careers with similar aptitudes along side it. Maybe?"

"Well, you worked at a creche. Was there only one of career for each aptitude cluster at the one you worked at?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Yes, but not those closures. earlier ones."

"How were those closures different from the ones now?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I chose to enter nursing, but not which hospital"

"So... Why did you choose nursing anyway?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I have, but I haven't given up my dream of working with a creche. A family is so... I wouldn't know how to do it.

"My impression is that nobody knows at first."

Originally Posted by ericthered

And I'd give up ever working where I want to work. I don't think I could do both."

"Why would you have to give that up? Sure, you'd probably need to make time in the day for them, but it's not as if families don't move for work sometimes, sometimes children go to day-care, or sometimes they are just trusted to stay at home on their own for a while..."

[ericthered]

Is there any evidence it is an existential risk?

Of course there is! Just look at what the experts say!

Hm... I take it that the clones who were infected with the diseases didn't necessarily fair so well, even if they were the ones who helped develop a cure.

No, they remained essentially healthy.

Hm... Well, what isn't a clone? Would taking the genetics of two people and scrambling them together not be a clone? Would mixing more than two be problematic? Or is it when you're getting picky where it becomes an issue?

Their definition seems to be the mass creation of individuals via exowomb via mass request.

It was more Julian reflecting on Olivia not being credited for the theory of everything.

"Holy Grail" names are for things you haven't found yet!

Interesting. "What makes it seem so weird?" I mumble a little, "I always felt they were the lucky ones..."

"Having everyone different ages, having so few kids, having the people who raise you have some other job... You aren't from a family? then how are you being raised?"

Instead of asking directly, I bring up a picture of Tyla Galileo and compare.

Maybe Julian can tell the difference? They look pretty similar. Makeup and clothing is quite different, but he's not sure about the rest.

Now that I think about it, shouldn't that be Galilei?

Maybe? its hardly the first given name to be used as a surname.

"Who can say? Her early life experiences were decided and managed by someone else. The within was selected, the without was also selected. Someone decided to place her on a path that led to the premiership, someone else placed you on a path to the creche. I guess the difference is that someone leaned on the table and knocked you off."

"She still had a choice. more of one than I have."

"Does it not bother you that everything up to your first job is planned by someone else?"

"No, because I love that they cared, and because Creche Worker wasn't my statistically likely profession. Medicine was."

"I dunno, if someone told me, 'you exist to help the group care more for each other, to help each other, and to build a prosperous society. Now hop to.' I think I might resent that."

"I could see that. But it depends on the society, and what they gave me back."

"Well, you worked at a creche. Was there only one of career for each aptitude cluster at the one you worked at?"

"They tried to have at least two. I've mentioned nursing."

"How were those closures different from the ones now?"

"No one started a war over it."

"So... Why did you choose nursing anyway?"

"Because I'm good at it and it feels good to help people."

"My impression is that nobody knows at first."

"I don't know that I find that true or comforting"

"Why would you have to give that up? Sure, you'd probably need to make time in the day for them, but it's not as if families don't move for work sometimes, sometimes children go to day-care, or sometimes they are just trusted to stay at home on their own for a while..."

"Which children would be mine? which culture and tradition would I be part of? I'd just feel torn too many ways."

Originally Posted by TGLS

Let's start by looking at whether the Concordance has some exception for ferrying people back to their homeworld even if under a ban.

It does.

Next, let's look at what happens to property abandoned by people who no longer have access to FTL travel. Surely that might be in the news or have some policy.

Its considered "abandoned". Perishables may be handled/liquidated by a management company that holds the funds.

After that let's see if other worlds have their own laws in line with the Concordance's policy on promoting slavery. Maybe the fine wasn't the Concordance, but the Concordance's influence led to the law that issued the fine?

This is hard to sort out... there are lots of laws on this. some involve fines.

Maybe there are other people have described their run-ins with Concordance anti-cloning policy somewhere online. Even assuming the worst case, they're not likely to be making things up.

You only run into Panogan cases: its seems the internet here is Panogan.



You find an number of complaints about people loosing enormous amounts of money because of lost because a lot of what you need to operate is rented, not owned, and because defaulting on contracts frequently involves financial penalties. Several refer to this effect as an effective "Fine".