(IC) Lost in Dreams (Julian)

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Her parents grew her in an exowomb like everyone else. What third option?"

"I dunno. You said she studied up on it which made it sound kind of unusual..."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Natural Birth?"

"Does that not happen anymore?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its old material. stuff published before the war."

"How long before the war?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"The Loyalist government probably doesn't look anti-cloning to you -- they're Panagoans being pressured by the Concordance. The <Bleep> concordance has been trying to destroy cloning here for a while. Its a little bit of destroying a rival, and a little bit of honest hate."

I recall something Orgel said. "Doesn't the Concordance isolate most communities that do cloning, with Panagos being an exception? If they hated cloning that much surely they wouldn't be engaging with Panagos."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"You're right, you need life-long human connection. You just don't need that from someone with your own genes. That probably is more important to you than the money we're offering."

That's surprising! "I... I didn't realize that is what is being offered here."

Originally Posted by ericthered

So he doesn't say that out loud, and thus doesn't go down that conversation path.

Yeah, some things are better left unsaid.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"You can't catch them all. You can't control every single exo-womb. And you still have to figure out what to do when you find 40 babies all cloned from the same parents in some monster's laboratory."

"I dunno, that feels like a," I scratch my head, "perfect solution fallacy. Just because there's some problems doesn't mean it's not a solution worth exploring. Do other worlds have to deal with mad cloners occasionally?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"The war, obviously. When you tell people their mode of life is immoral and try to stop it you get violent reactions."

"Yeah, that's probably not the way to do things. Maybe there could be a more 'softly softly' approach."

"Or maybe we should all be a bit more live and let live. You want to be cloned, and have clones raised in creches, that's fine. I don't want to be cloned without thinking about it first, and that's also fine."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Population. It takes millions and millions of people to maintain all this infrastructure. Without cloning, we'd be like all the other worlds, stuck with about 100 million at best."

"Would it really backslide that fast? Sure, it may have been needed before, but is it needed now? And is the population just going to keep growing like crazy forever? Won't you run out of room?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Now all those worlds serve the whims of the tyrants of the concordance."

"Because they're the only people with FTL, right? Does that really make them tyrants? Maybe they're just strongly opinionated. Like if Panagos had FTL land in their laps instead of the concordance, would they not be pushing their opinions about cloning on everyone else?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'm not sure. I know when these sorts of exceptions are sought, it often makes the news. Seems like they're always trying to show off the quality of the creche picked."

"Hm. Could I look up those news stories?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"What is 'catch-22'? But yeah, you have it right."

"It's a rule from a novel. Basically, you could only get out of going on bombing runs if you were crazy, but wanting to get out of bombing runs was evidence you weren't crazy. Thus nobody got out of bombing runs."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Is it? Combinatorics is pretty wild, but 8 million combinations from two parents is pretty impressive."

"Actually I think it might be closer to,", I think for a moment, "64 trillion. Chromosomes from both parents, yeah. And then anomalies."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Ok, you may be more unique than I thought. But is that combination really yours? wouldn't it belong to the people* who made you?"

The words "the people" fill me with the same kind of dread that I felt when I thought Riask for "big people" meant owners.

"Well it's not just mine, and it's not just theirs either. It's shared, but it's not also the man down the street's."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Because they did the work of gathering your hair? I don't really want your hair on my computer, but maybe I collect it and analyze who uses my computer. Maybe I'm an an academic or collector of hair-types."

"OK, well sure, use it to figure out who's using your computer. You could also use fingerprints or a camera. But don't just take it for crass material gain."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I suppose if you believe you have an absolute duty to anyone who shares your genetics that could make you worry... But isn't that an argument against that belief?"

"Well, if you treat all beliefs as malleable. But given that there's a war on Panagos, I don't think that beliefs can really be changed just because it's convenient either."

Originally Posted by ericthered

AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material"

And if all goes to plan, Julian will see Monday the 17th by next July. Not that I'm complaining.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"I dunno. You said she studied up on it which made it sound kind of unusual..."

Seven: "She's an expert in human biology. Its her job"

"Does that not happen anymore?"

"Every so often, I think."

"How long before the war?"

"10 years, maybe 20?"

I recall something Orgel said. "Doesn't the Concordance isolate most communities that do cloning, with Panagos being an exception? If they hated cloning that much surely they wouldn't be engaging with Panagos."

"Most worlds doing mass cloning are using it to run indoctrination and slavery programs. The Concordance dealt with us initially because they couldn't justify their hostility to us to everyone else until they'd built up their presence."

That's surprising! "I... I didn't realize that is what is being offered here."

"Its not. No offense, but I wouldn't look for family here. I could help you look for someone or something, but Royal is the boss, not the Mom."

"I dunno, that feels like a," I scratch my head, "perfect solution fallacy. Just because there's some problems doesn't mean it's not a solution worth exploring. Do other worlds have to deal with mad cloners occasionally?"

"Yes, it happens periodically. I was referencing a true story."

"Would it really backslide that fast? Sure, it may have been needed before, but is it needed now? And is the population just going to keep growing like crazy forever? Won't you run out of room?"

"The Plan for Panogos was always to scale back eventually. It probably would have still been a fuss without the concordance. With the concordance around, stoking the flames and making wild accusations, its become difficult to even talk reason. The shutting down of the cloning centers that started the war made sense. The Concordance just made it too hard to tell if the people advocating it were lying when they talked about scaling back, as opposed to eliminating"

"Because they're the only people with FTL, right? Does that really make them tyrants? Maybe they're just strongly opinionated. Like if Panagos had FTL land in their laps instead of the concordance, would they not be pushing their opinions about cloning on everyone else?"

"My parents once tried working with the concordance, trading between worlds. When the concordance decided to push the cloning issue, my parents spoke up in protest. The Concordance took everything thing they had, and left them in deep in debt. Ruined them."


"They hoard the knowledge of FTL, because they're scared of what will happen if they loose control of it. Everyone makes decisions in the concordance is from Kuru. They control it all, and they're trying to warp all of humanity to look like them. But we will stop them."

"Hm. Could I look up those news stories?"

"Sure".

The words "the people" fill me with the same kind of dread that I felt when I thought Riask for "big people" meant owners.

"Well it's not just mine, and it's not just theirs either. It's shared, but it's not also the man down the street's."

"Its information. Owning information is strange."

"OK, well sure, use it to figure out who's using your computer. You could also use fingerprints or a camera. But don't just take it for crass material gain."

"Would you object if I made a sculpture out of all the hair and dust guests left in my house?"

"Well, if you treat all beliefs as malleable. But given that there's a war on Panagos, I don't think that beliefs can really be changed just because it's convenient either."

"That's a good point. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Some Beliefs are Malleable, but it takes a lot of effort. And unless the belief is strange in the first place, you still need to back up the belief with good reasons."

And if all goes to plan, Julian will see Monday the 17th by next July. Not that I'm complaining.

Julian likes his philosophical explorations of new societies. Some of the characters reciprocate better than others. Seven has a personality that makes him especially susceptible to that.



AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material
News stories about cloned people

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Every so often, I think."

"But it's hardly common anymore, is it?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"10 years, maybe 20?"

"Any chance of getting anything more recent?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Most worlds doing mass cloning are using it to run indoctrination and slavery programs. The Concordance dealt with us initially because they couldn't justify their hostility to us to everyone else until they'd built up their presence."

"Why do they need to justify their hostility? They can control the transportation, they can control the narrative"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its not. No offense, but I wouldn't look for family here. I could help you look for someone or something, but Royal is the boss, not the Mom."

"Oh, my mistake. Seemed like an odd thing to bring up at the same time as the money..."

Maybe this isn't where I belong... It's not like I actually need the money...

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Yes, it happens periodically. I was referencing a true story."

"Does it happen on Panagos? Do they just toss the lot of them into the creche system and call it a day?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"With the concordance around, stoking the flames and making wild accusations, its become difficult to even talk reason."

"Isn't that just the activists?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"My parents once tried working with the concordance, trading between worlds. When the concordance decided to push the cloning issue, my parents spoke up in protest. The Concordance took everything thing they had, and left them in deep in debt. Ruined them."

"That's awful! Just came down on them like a pile of bricks? Was there anything official?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They hoard the knowledge of FTL, because they're scared of what will happen if they loose control of it. Everyone makes decisions in the concordance is from Kuru. They control it all, and they're trying to warp all of humanity to look like them. But we will stop them."

"All of humanity? I take it that the Concordance's aims are bigger than just cloning. What else do they want to change?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its information. Owning information is strange."

"I take it there's no copyright office on Panagos."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Would you object if I made a sculpture out of all the hair and dust guests left in my house?"

"Ew! I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but yuck! How would it even go together? I don't even want to think about it!"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That's a good point. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Some Beliefs are Malleable, but it takes a lot of effort. And unless the belief is strange in the first place, you still need to back up the belief with good reasons."

"What makes a belief strange? Religion? Racism? Interpretations of quantum mechanics?"

"And shouldn't it be the other way around? What the belief should be changed to should be backed up with good reasons?"

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"But it's hardly common anymore, is it?"

"Not especially."

"Any chance of getting anything more recent?"

"Sure... I can try. lets see what we get."

"Why do they need to justify their hostility? They can control the transportation, they can control the narrative"

"They can't maintain that high of control over communication. I don't know why they didn't start out declaring us pariahs. perhaps because we were very well know via STL comms. Maybe they had a saner government back then."

"Oh, my mistake. Seemed like an odd thing to bring up at the same time as the money..."

"Just a tangent. And a realization about you."

"Does it happen on Panagos? Do they just toss the lot of them into the creche system and call it a day?"

"I actually don't know. I'm pretty sure we would funnel them into the creches, yes."

"Isn't that just the activists?"

"Officially sanctioned, funded, and organized activists, sure."

"That's awful! Just came down on them like a pile of bricks? Was there anything official?"

"You mean like a trial? Sort of. We were declared to be 'Advocates of Slavery' by a tribunal we were not allowed to do more than send letters to. They then froze my parent's assets and demanded large fines. We went back to Panogos, but the government was trying to smooth things over, not protect its people."

"All of humanity? I take it that the Concordance's aims are bigger than just cloning. What else do they want to change?"

"They've swept up a bunch of promising causes. Slavery. AI. Extreme Genetic Engineering. Most laws against vices.*"

"I take it there's no copyright office on Panagos."

"Oh, there is a copyright office. I'm not on good terms with them, but they exist."

"What makes a belief strange? Religion? Racism? Interpretations of quantum mechanics?"

"Probably some intersection of intuition, truth, and previously learned beliefs. If a belief doesn't satisfy all three, its likely to be strange."

"And shouldn't it be the other way around? What the belief should be changed to should be backed up with good reasons?"

"Sometimes we don't know the truth, and have to pick. Especially in social morality systems, like this. Some would argue that right and wrong don't have a truth behind them."

*Going by the seat of my pants here!

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They can't maintain that high of control over communication. I don't know why they didn't start out declaring us pariahs. perhaps because we were very well know via STL comms. Maybe they had a saner government back then."

"Well, slower than light comms take years to reach another star. Maybe something changed in the years before the concordance showed up? Or maybe the communications put out by Panagos isn't perceived as being accurate."

I'll remember to look up history of Panagos around the time when the concordance showed up.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"You mean like a trial? Sort of. We were declared to be 'Advocates of Slavery' by a tribunal we were not allowed to do more than send letters to. They then froze my parent's assets and demanded large fines. We went back to Panogos, but the government was trying to smooth things over, not protect its people."

"I'm... sorry to hear that."

I decide to look up what 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They've swept up a bunch of promising causes. Slavery. AI. Extreme Genetic Engineering. Most laws against vices.*"

I decide to take a charitable view of his phrasing. "Well most of those don't sound too good either. Maybe they're just moving around slightly on cloning and Panagos is just caught up in it."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Oh, there is a copyright office. I'm not on good terms with them, but they exist."

"Give me enough time and I probably wouldn't be either. But I wouldn't say that information isn't a valid kind of property just because I happen to illegally copy it either."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Probably some intersection of intuition, truth, and previously learned beliefs. If a belief doesn't satisfy all three, its likely to be strange."

"And you say that those are the ones that don't need to be backed up with other beliefs?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Sometimes we don't know the truth, and have to pick. Especially in social morality systems, like this. Some would argue that right and wrong don't have a truth behind them."

"I guess, but there are probably some that everyone can agree on."

Originally Posted by ericthered

*Going by the seat of my pants here!

I guess sometimes that's the price of the illusion that all the background elements are fleshed out completely.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Well, slower than light comms take years to reach another star. Maybe something changed in the years before the concordance showed up? Or maybe the communications put out by Panagos isn't perceived as being accurate."

"Sure, but we're 7 light years from the Athros. I suppose they could have excluded them to keep our story down, but eventually they'd out themselves as lying, and it'd be a really bad look"

I'll remember to look up history of Panagos around the time when the concordance showed up.


I decide to look up what 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means.

added to the list.

"I'm... sorry to hear that."

"Thanks. This is why its important to break their hold on interstellar travel. This is why I'm here and not helping out back home."

I decide to take a charitable view of his phrasing. "Well most of those don't sound too good either. Maybe they're just moving around slightly on cloning and Panagos is just caught up in it."

"Sure. They're supposed to sound good. The easy parts are even legitimate. But they're not being honest about their moving around... they targeted Panogos, because they're jealous of our success and influence."

"Give me enough time and I probably wouldn't be either. But I wouldn't say that information isn't a valid kind of property just because I happen to illegally copy it either."

"Its something that's sort of property and sort of not."

"And you say that those are the ones that don't need to be backed up with other beliefs?"

"I'm saying those are the ones that people can and may choose to change."

"I guess, but there are probably some that everyone can agree on."

"That's true. Some. Though people will carve out loopholes and exceptions even in those. Or take them a lot farther than others."

I guess sometimes that's the price of the illusion that all the background elements are fleshed out completely.

thank you, I think!



AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material
News stories about cloned people
History of Panogos around concordance contact
What 'Advocates of Slavery' actually means

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Thanks. This is why its important to break their hold on interstellar travel. This is why I'm here and not helping out back home."

Well I'm not so sure about that though... I think I need to learn more about how Panagos is run besides the cloning.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Sure. They're supposed to sound good. The easy parts are even legitimate. But they're not being honest about their moving around... they targeted Panogos, because they're jealous of our success and influence."

"Do you think they planned it that way from the beginning?"

My thoughts drift back towards my history classes. "Maybe it's like colonialism; they start from an economic and pragmatic position, and then they build an ideological justification afterward that reinforces their position."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'm saying those are the ones that people can and may choose to change."

"Oh, I see. But how would that effect the ideas that they build on top of their 'strange' ideas? Like, you might start with the sacredness of personal choice, and go from there, ending up on all sorts of far flung ideas that would seem to be changeable ideas..."

Originally Posted by ericthered

thank you, I think!

It was more of a reflection on how RPGs kind of work. I guess it kind of is a compliment, given that it's difficult to create the illusion that things that are unfilled background are as filled in as the stuff that's deliberately there.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Do you think they planned it that way from the beginning?"

"Maybe some of them. Some of them were probably drunk on their newfound power, and some of them hadn't had power go to their heads yet."

My thoughts drift back towards my history classes. "Maybe it's like colonialism; they start from an economic and pragmatic position, and then they build an ideological justification afterward that reinforces their position."

"That's what I think. The people pushing this really want Panogos pulled down, so they applied whatever levers they could, without regard to ethics, lives, or blood.

"Oh, I see. But how would that effect the ideas that they build on top of their 'strange' ideas? Like, you might start with the sacredness of personal choice, and go from there, ending up on all sorts of far flung ideas that would seem to be changeable ideas..."

"I won't say that it results in a clean philosophical system. It results in a practical system that builds working societies."

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Maybe some of them. Some of them were probably drunk on their newfound power, and some of them hadn't had power go to their heads yet."

"So Panagos was one of the first worlds that the Concordance visited?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That's what I think. The people pushing this really want Panogos pulled down, so they applied whatever levers they could, without regard to ethics, lives, or blood.

I suppose if Julian had a more global perspective he may have picked up on the parallels with the debates surrounding slavery in the antebellum US, with Northern farmers who started with economic opposition which developed into moral opposition, and likewise with the "positive good" ideas espoused by Southern planters. Though I guess it works out for him here.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I won't say that it results in a clean philosophical system. It results in a practical system that builds working societies."

Hm... This is a bit off too... "So ideas and belief systems need to be deliberately planned? You can't let things just come together as they will?"

Maybe Panagos is using the same means as the other cloners who seek to reshape human nature, just for different ends.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"So Panagos was one of the first worlds that the Concordance visited?"

"They visited the closest worlds first, followed by the largest... so yes, Panogos was one of the earlier systems to be visited."

I suppose if Julian had a more global perspective he may have picked up on the parallels with the debates surrounding slavery in the antebellum US, with Northern farmers who started with economic opposition which developed into moral opposition, and likewise with the "positive good" ideas espoused by Southern planters. Though I guess it works out for him here.

Yeah, ethics drifting to align with more material incentives is one of those scary things that makes you question where your own beliefs really come from.

Hm... This is a bit off too... "So ideas and belief systems need to be deliberately planned? You can't let things just come together as they will?"

"Do you want your ethics to be an accident?"

Maybe Panagos is using the same means as the other cloners who seek to reshape human nature, just for different ends.

Naw, Panogos has added "Sophistry!" to its tools! though I suppose the other cloners use that too.